Duelyst Forums

An open letter to counterplay games: The Sequel

Dear Counterplay Games,

It seems Duelyst has finally grown up to become part of the pantheon of online CCGs with some actual longevity, and you’ve earned that. When I look back on the months I’ve been active with this game and it’s community I got an overwhelming sense of dedication, integrity and overall good faith from your developers and moderators and you cultivated quite a few true believers who would consistently sing your praises in message boards, videos, streams and take time out of their days to voluntarily bring new people in and mentor them when they did. @ArdentDawn (AD) was a player like that, and they wrote an extensive open letter to you following the release of Denizens of Shim’Zar, airing his concerns and articulating the reasons why they would no longer invest money into the game any longer, and take a serious back seat in terms of investment overall. I don’t know if they’re even still playing. The second major expansion to Duelyst brought similar controversy, but even more concerning, in my opinion.

Truth be told, I wasn’t involved with the game long enough to really understand AD’s mindset back then, I didn’t have enough history with the game to really grasp why the reduced drop rate on Orbs felt like such a betrayal worthy of extensive backlash. Objectively the move seemed understandable to me: the Core Set had grown to be too generous so the drop rate had to be dialed back for future expansions. A business decision to be sure, but an understandable one, I thought at the time. The real issue (it seems to me) was that you couched on the trust you had built up with the community in order to withhold that information to the players, benefiting off the assumption (that you left uncorrected) that drop rates would be similar to the established rates and thus inflating the amount of people who would buy the expansion based on that inflated value proposition. The issue wasn’t that you made a business decision, it was that you abused the trust you had built up through your horizontal interactions with the community, showing that community members had been suckers for assuming good faith on your part. As AD put it:

Back then it could be argued that it was simply an oversight, something you hadn’t even thought about and just sort of ‘happened.’ But now you’re older and more experienced, and a large professional publisher has gotten involved: that level of benefit of the doubt can’t apply anymore. And honestly, I believe you’ve done something similar, but this time on a larger scale. But before I get into that let me consider why a person like me got so involved with Duelyst so you might better understand where I’m coming from at the end of this post.


Why I Like Duelyst

I’m not much of a competitive player. My upbringing has led me to experience very high stress responses when confronted with competitive time-bounded situations, meaning I get stressed out playing more than a few matches a day. Playing Duelyst has been one of my ways of dealing with this handicap, and it has served me well so far. I’m with Duelyst because I love the pixel art, I love the deck-building, I love turn-based tactical games and I especially love the kind of people the game has drawn. Griefing is the lowest I’ve ever experienced online, the community is spirited, open and respectful, the mods are fair and involved: it’s the closest I’ve seen to a perfect online community so far. We haven’t seen significant social upheavals since the legendary @raqyee left (I’d have preferred they stayed honestly, just in a more respectful form). Finally, you’ve proven to be responsive to community concerns and feedback; before all this became apparent I was prepping to write a huge exposé on how Unearthed Prophecy próved without a shadow of a doubt that CPG listens to their community. The expansion reads like an itemized list of exactly those things the community consistently said they wanted: minimal RNG, support for older Keywords, boosting slower decks, cool combo pieces, support for underperforming archetypes, heaps of board-centric cards, an emphasis on playing more minions, punishing majority-spell decks, promoting reactive strategies (Sentinels) and probably more. It’s insane when you really look at how much you’ve done to make an expansion that we’d like and it’s not controversial to believe that this is your finest expansion yet. All these factors combined have made me a very passionate community member. you’ll likely never see me in S-Rank or placing in tournaments, but I’ve tried to be a force for good for this game, because I believe you’ve earned all the recognition you’ve now started getting. On an even more personal note I’ve even been approached by your team members who thanked me personally for striving to be exactly that and I can’t begin to tell you how much it meant to me that you actually cared enough to even notice. So why am I now writing what probably reads like an overlong obituary?


What Happened?
Bandai Namco happened. I was excited about the announcement that you were partnering up with BN because I assumed good faith on your part (silly me) and that you would only make a deal with a publisher if you were absolutely sure the game wouldn’t be negatively affected, or at least that you’d inform us well in advance of any negative changes the partnership would cause. As it turned out Bandai Namco was not ready to actually do their job of providing customer support (account linking outside the US is still broken) and a region lock secretly went into effect that locked out at players of at least one country (Russia), which has since then been defended by our BN community contact thusly:

CPG customer support has been taken over by calculating, corporate people who are fine with locking out paying customers without even warning them about it, and then pretending it never happened because it only affected a small amount of people. To boot, BN refuses to tell us if any other countries have been affected, and whether or not players currently playing in those countries might find themselves suddenly locked out, even after spending money since the partnership began (as alplod proved was possible). The most famous victim of this phenomenon @hulk12345/@alplod has finally been acknowledged after being called a liar, needing to provide video evidence before BN would even properly look into his case and offering a half-hearted non-apology with an offer to buy them out.

Other support issues will hopefully be sorted out soon, and the Diamonds payment system’s screwy price points is a jerkoff move, but one that I could’ve personally begrudgingly lived with. But here we come to the real similarity with AD’s open letter: it really really sucks that people from (at least) Russia are getting region-locked, and I don’t believe that BN is being truthful when they claim it’s impossible to make Duelyst available in Russia. As others (notably @Aeruniel) have pointed out: games like Hearthstone and Shadowverse are playable in Russia, meaning the issue is far more likely with BN’s policies rather than any law preventing them from publishing in Russia. Regardless of that, it’s possible that CPG felt compelled to accept the deal anyway because they were reaching a breaking point in terms of keeping Duelyst going into the foreseeable future: the small Russian player contingent could’ve been a sacrifice they were willing to make, however begrudgingly. However, you did not tell us about any of this.

Your partnership was all smiles, benefits and upsides, but you again lied by omission by failing to inform us that players were going to be locked out of Duelyst, their very existence even ultimately denied until coerced by video evidence. @hulk12345 is currently very angry with this whole situation, and what some might not understand is that this is no longer just about being locked out of Duelyst or losing money: it’s about being suddenly pushed out of the game, cut from its community and then being branded as an illegitimate member of that community. We human beings build up relationships with the things we get involved with, and suddenly getting inexplicably removed from those things gets us deeply, intensely upset. If CPG had chosen to warn us ahead of time that there was some sour with the sweet we would’ve been angry and upset, some of us might have even left the game, but it wouldn’t have done any significant damage to your reputation and the trust your players have in you. Now, who knows? Is it safe to spend time and money on Duelyst or will you arbitrarily get removed from the game, your money and time now forfeit without even an acknowledgement? What is the next betrayal going to look like? This erosion of trust and good will makes gamers hesitant to invest their resources into your wonderful game and makes them less likely to support and promote the game to others, and this is only worsened by the fact that you’ve installed @stormshade as your go-between, putting up a wall between the community and the developers that wasn’t there before. We assume good faith from the developers but only if we can have actual meaningful contact with them, and that bond is weakening by the day, especially after someone presumably strong-armed @ThanatosNoa into posting that aggressively power-washed PR message recently.

The issue is that we trusted you, got burned, and are now having trouble forgetting that so we can trust you enough to invest our time and money into you again. That’s why we’re begging you for some kind of public statement (that is nót written in vague legalese and does not ignore key questions): to reaffirm that we’re not suckers for assuming that you’d warn us if you were going to make a decision that is clearly only harmful to (some of) us. Trusting that we wouldn’t stick up for Russians because we’re not Russians betrays how the people now pulling the strings don’t understand that you’ve put in countless hours to build an actual community rather than just a loosely affiliated collection of self-interested individuals. We (not all, but plenty of us) care if you screw one of us over, both on an emphatic level and out of worry that we might be next. Which leads me to ask: what now?


What Comes Next?
After much consideration I think there are six recommendations I want to give voice to, aimed at different groups involved with Duelyst in some way.

For CPG & BN: Remember that F2P games live and die by their reputations. You’ve armored your TOS to guard against legal action but games don’t do well if their players don’t trust that their investment (time and money) is going to deliver them decent value; stunts like this erode that trust and Duelyst doesn’t have the momentum like Hearthstone does to shrug off a few thousand people every time they do so. The next time something comes up that will definitely harm our interests I suggest you inform us ahead of time, and do so in terms all of us can understand. Maybe I’m wrong and you’ll shrug this incident off as just a bump in the road (BN likely doesn’t care either way), but games have been broken over breaches of trust before and will again, and Duelyst can’t continue to exist without players who feel comfortable spending real-world money on it, like I used to do and almost did for UP.

For everyone sticking with Duelyst: Some of you might not care about all this, and others might simply care about Duelyst more. I think that’s understandable even if I don’t agree, but I implore you to function as the game’s memory for future incidents. Be the next @ArdentDawn who can recollect what has happened in the past so future people like me don’t get burned, unaware of the game’s development until then. Make sure to ask the right questions and provide information information the next time CPG/BN makes an announcement or promotes a Preorder or whatever else so other players can have the information needed to make informed purchasing decisions because (as history has shown) CPG is unwilling to do it for us.

For everyone outside the US just getting into Duelyst: be careful and only invest time and money in Duelyst at your own risk. Hopefully BN will see sense soon and publish an overview of restricted countries and supported countries so you can make an informed decision if you want to get further involved with the game. In the meantime, NEVER mention your location here, the subreddit and especially to customer support because you might find yourself unexpectedly locked out of your account, even if by accident. To any Russian players here who were not yet purged: good luck, and may the odds be ever in your favor.

For @hulk12345 and anyone else affected like him: keep petitioning CPG to unban your account so you can at least play the game when you’re in another country if you like, but if it’s too much of a hassle or just not happening I think you’re probably best off taking the buy-out before BN changes their mind. I don’t think there’s a ‘best’ next step now, just various flavors of crap.

For me: I’m out, for now. My personal morals don’t allow me to support a company with this kind of attitude and policy, and I’m not willing to amend my morals to continue playing a game whose creators I can’t trust anymore. I’m not deleting any of my accounts (here and in-game), I’m just going to stop posting and playing for the foreseeable future and instead just keep an eye out for a while to see if things get better. If CPG/BN’s policies improve or my morals weaken/change I might pop back in and see if I want to get stuck in again, but I’m saying goodbye for now. I hope there will be someone else willing and able to post and maintain Healyonar Tactica threads, Spoiler Compendiums, think pieces and so on, but I suppose it’s not going to be my concern anymore, for now anyway.


Boycot or Not?
I’ve been feeling very attracted to boycotting CPG/BN until they change their silly policies and #BringBackAlplod, but I’m not in a position to argue either way if I’m not going to be involved anymore. The dilemma is that a boycot doesn’t harm BN (why would they care if Duelyst fails, it’s not like they put in a lot of effort supporting it), makes CPG less important for BN so petitioning them for change becomes less likely, and the most likely players to take part in a boycot are those who are already unlikely to spend (more) money, so they’re not really lost sales. Players will likely choose to either stay or leave, accept the situation or not and those staying will likely behave as they would normally: why stay otherwise right? If it were me I’d boycot Duelyst until CPG installs some kind of legacy ruling that unbans people from now-restricted countries (both those who registered pre-BN and new ones) so they can at least play Duelyst while outside of the national borders of the restricted countries. I wouldn’t want to support a game that I wouldn’t be able to play anymore if I happened to move to another country at some point, personally.

Regardless of the politics I’ll continue logging in and seeing how things develop for probably a few days to a week, until the point where I feel like I’ve ‘let go’ of Duelyst enough to start looking for another good game to practice not-freaking out by competing in. I’ve spent way too long writing all this, but at least I’ve got it off my chest. I’ve saved the entire text of this post so I have a backup if this gets lost somehow.

Cheers, and thanks to almost all of you for being awesome people.

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You are always welcome to hang out with us here.
Otherwise, I hope your life is filled with love and hope. Maybe we’ll cross paths again.

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For me, I always loved Duelyst, from the moment I saw it on kickstarter as a project, with the devs asking their potential future player base for money so they could develop the game whose ideas they presented there.
Trust was very important then, as no one would put money in a project they didn’t believe in, or donate money to devs they didn’t feel they could trust.

I pledged, and not at a low level either ($70, backer number 63).

Then the game changed… the Secret Powers tier didn’t work out, I didn’t get those rewards. The game changed massively.
"Well okay, changes happen, I don’t like it, but I really understand it. At least we still have the different faction colors."
Then the different faction colors never materialized.
"Well, we still have the unique kickstarter skins (Doge and Rogue Legacy)."
Later the Rogue Legacy skin was offered to winners of tournaments, and there was even mention of the Doge skin getting the same treatment.

My reaction here: MIDSEASON UPDATE: DUELYST WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP CIRCUIT – Duelyst
There was no reply, no official word. Well, I tried, and I let it go, I love Duelyst! But I do not forget. I resolved to take action if the Doge skin would ever be offered, my last line of defense, my last remnant of the Secret Powers tier.

When the partnership was announced I was skeptical, and when the diamonds were announced I was even more skeptical, and said as such: Introducing Diamonds – Duelyst.

I also asked whether the partnership would mean that we would lose the great relation we had with the CPG devs (A New Community Person Appears!).

Well, we know the answer now.

In any case, the skepticism (based on earlier experiences with other publishers) made me, for the very first time ever, not buy orbs.

And I am so, so, so incrédibly glad I didn’t!

You see, I love the game, I really want to support it, so in addition to kickstarting the game and while really not needing to buy orbs (Duelyst is generous and my kickstarter rewards were transmuted into 3x each core card, eventually) I always bought the new expansions anyway.
I even got the ‘first player deals’, I don’t remember when those happened.
I also supported tournaments by the way.

Then this happens: some players apparently suddenly now were banned from the game for living in a certain region.

I do not know why, but we have heard @stormshade say that they knew beforehand.
And we haven’t heard what will happen in the future with players who can still play nor have we heard whether there will be blanket refunds for people in those regions, nor how far back these would go (I’d say at least 6 months back would be reasonable).

So then, yes, I am extremely upset. I personally still LOVE this game, and I have thought a lot about how to proceed.
I admit that my love of the gameplay and community swayed me into staying, and I’ve thought of a reason to justify it for me:
If I stay it’s true that I help the game by being in the match-making pool and thus the lifeblood of the game.
But, since my games will cost them servers and data transfer costs, albeit extremely small probably, I decided that I can stay and those two sort-of cancel each other.

But I will never ever spend money on Duelyst again.
And my ‘15char’ is now #BringBackAlplod.
And I will be very skeptical and critical of BN and Duelyst wherever it may apply.

These things may change, but do not count on it, unless there’s suddenly really amazing effort and result.

Then, another two rubs, while the trust was already so low: A reminder about the partnership in the middle of the silence for a full week after alplod let us know his predicament.
I would have liked a tweak in the text to reflect the reality here on the forums. One sentence. But no.

The last rub was a diamond sale, 2 weeks after the expansion and the transition. When trust is this low, CPG and BN, you should not use timing like that to get more money. It’s normal to combine a discount with the launch, you’ve done deals in the previous expansion, so we all expected it.
If there’s none, fine. But then 2 weeks later there suddenly is.

Plans can be changed, and should be changed, when there’s a big enough reason. This last thing tells me that ‘they’ (idk who) still see this as minor and not important, since they let the sale go through.

And I might leave anyway, after all, I know I cannot really decide yet. There are many other fun card games. I will see in the coming weeks. But for now the above is how I will handle it.

Also, this might be something some of you would want to do as well: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197982893207/recommended/291410

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@aeruniel and @thematsjo, I totally understand your messages but you guys maybe should drop the “feelings”.

One year ago, or while Kickstarter it was relevant but let’s face it, it’s over. Now it’s about industry, growth and money. The game has changed (a bit), the community has changed (a bit), and even the Community Manager has changed :slight_smile:

Forget the “golden age” you may seem to regret, it’s the Profit era for Duelyst now, and we’re only customers (and don’t get fooled by representative trying to “gain” your trust, that’s is a job too, keeping users loyal to the brand).

TL;DR : it’s just a game, nothing “special” about it, and you can still enjoy playing it by tuning down the emotions :wink:

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Inb4 people starting ripping puns about not being able to play :wink:

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I do not wish to be a machine man so I will not drop the “feelings”.

I don’t like all this, so I say it.

It is current for me at this moment, and thematsjo’s post prompted me to write my own thing, as a kind of closing statement about the whole thing.

I get that you try to offer well-meaning advice, but I want this to change, and who am I if I will not speak up when the issue is current? Society changes, and there are slippery slopes. If you tolerate this, your children, etc.

My thing in life, what I find extremely important, is to be authentic, to really embody who you are inside. That there’s no disconnect between your feelings, actions and words. I try to do that as much as I can, and following your advice would be trying to be, or act like, someone I am not.

But I do thank you for the effort of trying to diminish our hurt feelings by lowering the standards to which we hold the world. Thing is, isn’t it low enough already, really?

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Can’t watch the second video. I’m in the wrong country apparently.

This made me laugh the tiniest bit for some odd reason

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Come on, I’m just saying it’s just an online game that used to be amateur (with good and bad) and is now going professional (with different consideration and relationship with customer).

No need to go full Godwin on me … that’s exactly what I was pointing : maybe it could be better to keep it “lighter”. When it comes to society, inner self, being authentic and stuff … there’s the © Real Life ™ for that, where your actions may sometime have an impact around you, but here … on a small online card game bought by a big corp … seriously.

Anyway, never mind, I guess I’m too old/jaded/realistic/stupid/all-these-above-and-more :stuck_out_tongue:

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This is real life.

I don’t want to convince you or so, I am simply explaining my point of view, it’s fine if you have another.

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You’re welcome to have your own business minded, everything goes, no feelings approach to life and good for you if its working out. Trying to put down other people for having more emotions than a concrete slab is pretty unnecessary though. Yes, you’re above us for not having emotions. Well done. Buy a bottle of 12-yr old whisky or something.

But hey, I’m just another alplod. Feel free to your opinion. Don’t try to push it on us, though.

Actually I never said that, it was no feelings anymore between a small gaming company growing and their playerbase. That’s all I said, since first post.

Not putting anyone down, just saying that after all, it may be less painful for them to put away the “pathos” a bit, and thus, suffer less. You know, like if it was a small online CCG, not a big deal.

But feel free to compare me to Hitler, twist my words, picture me as an hearthless whisky drinker … *sigh*

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Hey, guys, please go a bit more easy on @nwardezir. He is just trying to help, by reminding you that if you calm down a bit, you can still have a good time with Duelyst.

If that’s not for you - I completely understand. It’s not my place to support @nwardezir’s position after all :slight_smile: However he is by no means oppresive in his statement.

Cheers.

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@Smash_the_Hamster weighed in on the situation, focusing on the ‘legal reasons’ portion of BN’s statement. Because he’s stated he wants people to watch his videos on his channel I’m not linking to the video, but rather to his channel if you want to go watch it.

@nwardezir

Let’s say you frequent a local death metal karaoke bar called Comically Perverse Grunting. You spend several hours a week there doing death metal karaoke, you buy drinks, socialize and have a good time. You do this for several years with no issue. One day you show up, ready to perform your heart out, but when you go to the barman to reserve a seat in the evening’s lineup they suddenly tell you that you’re no longer allowed to perform karaoke or buy drinks, but you can still hang around and lurk in a corner as long as you don’t cause a fuss. Bewildered, you ask what is going on, what’s changed, what have you done to deserve that kind of treatment. The barman gives you a glassy look, says ‘new management, you shouldn’t have been able to become a member here anyway’ and just turns away. Getting frustrated now, you start making a bit of a fuss, demanding a proper answer as to why you’ve suddenly been locked out. Acquaintances and friends in the bar start taking notice, and a small gathering of people forms at the bar, discussing your situation and calling out to the barman for actual proper comment. Some other patrons get annoyed that their evening’s experience is getting disrupted and they assert that you should above all remain respectful to the barman, who is of course just doing their job. After a while you get the barman’s attention by procuring your CPG membership card and a receipt you had showing you’ve been a customer for quite a while, but you are not unbanned from the institution, and no further comment is made. This causes a mild furore with people indignant, angry and worried, both empathic to your situation and those like you, but also because they worry they might suffer the same fate, and similarly unexplained.
As you’re still fuming and thinking over what to do a local called ziredrawn walks up to you and tells you to stop being so emotional. CPG is about industry, growth and money now they tell you. The golden age of death metal karaoke is over and you shouldn’t be trusting the barman to continue service to you anyway.

I don’t accept the notion that there’s something inherently different to online and offline social activities. If you wouldn’t accept this kind of thing without blowing a gasket from a bar in your area I don’t think you need to accept this from an online game. I hope that analogy helps illustrate why I will continue to feel emotions over this at the same time as I am making a self-interested rational individual calculation on how to proceed. You’re here under just a casually self-interested moral compass, fine. For me, there ís something special about Duelyst. There’s no other good death metal karaoke bar in my area and all my karaoke buddies are there, so to speak.

PS: I’m a concerned bystander in this story, I hope you get my meaning.

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I think the cynicism here is poorly founded. CPG has made a treasure trove of mistakes in handling their playerbase, but it’s never been out of greed or apathy. With that in mind, I don’t think this is like the artbook, where misunderstanding regarding logistics will force CPG to outright break part of a promise (but to be fair, they still did what they could.) Rather, this seems like a more time intensive problem that they have to handle regarding the new client, and new accounting system.

TL;DR- I don’t think CPG is selling us out, I think they’re likely just overwhelmed with whatever restructuring is going on internally, and it would probably be more constructive to have a chat about it on Discord. Really hope Hulk gets to play again within in the next month or so, because Duelyst is not a project that can afford to sacrifice player retention.

I do think one thing that the Duelyst community is prone to, is overthinking a problem and making rash judgments- getting super hot about a problem, without looking at time stamps to realize that only a few hours or days have passed. While I feel this issue is urgent, I can’t honestly say that I completely understand how the Devs feel about it, and hope that it gets answered, even if it isn’t answered especially soon.

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It’s the lack of communication and intent of the ban that people are focusing on.

Even if those in charge are busy ‘restructuring’, one might wonder why there’d be no message or disclaimer around about such a thing going on.

And with so little to go on but upset people conversing with upset people (I’m with @nwardezir on this one), biased theories grow, multiply and eventually overwhelm anything grounded in concrete facts (not saying everything going around is unfounded, but not all of it is sensible). Much of what stormshade said and answered was ignored, save for focussing on his (admittedly) dodgy comment about the player-base of Russia being (seemingly) expendable.

This has turned into less of a reply and more of a general message, but some restraint is in order. If people are going to feel upset and come up with reasons for why the ceiling is caving in, calm down and come up with reasons why this is just a momentary bump in the road.

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I fail to see how putting down people for having less connection to an online card game than you is a better alternative. Your comment is tinged with bias, in my opinion anyway.

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Yeah, it’s completely OK to refer to human beings as

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I’m not sure if this is too much to ask, but could you be concrete about these biased theories etc?

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No, it’s really not. Which is why I did not refer to human beings as such.

I’m perplexed how you even managed to read it like that; that I referred to human beings as such.

Like I’ve said, too rash.

We don’t know that BN is out to get us and ruin Duelyst.
And unless I’m mistaken, do drop the snarky tone; it’s unbecoming.