Duelyst Forums

Can we measure the level of balance issues?

Many of you know there is an active discussion on balance going in @deathsadvocate’s thread.
Between playing the game, observing the game and arguing with DA about the game, I got annoyed by current state of Magmar more than usual. To kinda back up my own point of view, I eventually came up with the following test: count the overall amount and distribution of minions that survive Magmar’s usual removal package.

Condition is the following:

  • non-token minion
  • more than 3 attack (Plasma)
    • more than 4 health (Makantor) and attack is less than health (Rebuke)
      or
    • Forcefield present.

This includes only base stats (not all decks run buffs or even have them) and doesn’t include more complex interactions like growing minions or 0 attack eggs.

With Bagoum present, I wrote a simple script to do the filtering for me. You can execute it yourself in browser console on Bagoum (card database page, for example). Everything is pretty simple, if you know JavaScript.

Code
var Filter = [];
Object.values(cardData).forEach((Card)=>{
	Card.attack = parseInt(Card.attack,10); // converting from strings for comparison to work
	Card.health = parseInt(Card.health,10);
	if (
		Card.type == "Unit"
		&& Card.rarity != "Token"
		&& Card.attack > 3
		&& (
			((Card.health>4)&&(Card.attack<Card.health))
			|| Card.searchableText.includes("Forcefield")
		)
	) {
		if (!Filter.includes(Card)) { // cardData has each card doubled; checking for duplicates
			Filter.push(Card);
		};
	};
});
Filter = Filter.map((Card)=>(`${Card.shortfaction.padEnd(9)} ${Card.manaCost} ${Card.name}`)).sort();
console.log(Filter.join("\r\n"));

Got an idea what the results are?

Results

Out of 504 non-token minion cards return by Bagoum, only 50 fall under the provided condition. That’s ~10% of all minion card pool, with majority being neutrals. List is sorted by faction, then by cost.

Abyssian  5 Black Solus
Lyonar    4 War Judicator
Lyonar    5 Oakenheart
Lyonar    6 Prominence
Lyonar    7 Alabaster Titan
Lyonar    7 Grandmaster Z'ir
Lyonar    7 Indominus
Lyonar    7 Peacekeeper
Magmar    4 Omniseer
Magmar    5 Lavaslasher
Magmar    5 Visionar
Magmar    6 Armada
Magmar    6 Dreadnought
Magmar    8 Juggernaut
Magmar    9 Grandmaster Kraigon
Neutral   3 Komodo Hunter
Neutral   3 Sellsoul
Neutral   4 Blistering Skorn
Neutral   4 Hailstone Golem
Neutral   5 Blue Conjurer
Neutral   5 Brightmoss Golem
Neutral   5 Dancing Blades
Neutral   5 Golden Justicar
Neutral   5 Inquisitor Kron
Neutral   5 Sworn Defender
Neutral   5 Theobule
Neutral   6 Diamond Golem
Neutral   6 Facestriker
Neutral   6 Lodestar
Neutral   6 Ruby Rifter
Neutral   6 Silverbeak
Neutral   7 Dark Nemesis
Neutral   7 E'Xun
Neutral   7 War Talon
Neutral   7 Zurael, the Lifegiver
Neutral   8 Khymera
Songhai   7 Second-sword Sarugi
Songhai   7 Storm Kage
Vanar     4 Denadoro
Vanar     4 Meltwater Moose
Vanar     4 Wind Sister Maia
Vanar     5 Cloudcaller
Vanar     6 Draugar Eyolith
Vanar     6 Draugar Lord
Vanar     7 Ghost Seraphim
Vetruvian 5 Fifth Canopic
Vetruvian 5 Incinera
Vetruvian 5 Starfire Scarab
Vetruvian 6 Swarmking Scarab
Vetruvian 8 Grandmaster Nosh-Rak

Here goes playing around this control faction. Abyssian mains, make sure not to get lost in options.

But, to make it something more constructive than just my nerf call, do you have any quantifiable conditions to try to measure balance issues you see? Maybe, approaching balance this way, some issues become more apparent.

7 Likes

Well, magmar has some serious balance issue imho.

Not only they got ton of control (lavalance and natural selection being the best single target removal, with the former being ridicolously op and rebuke and plasmastorm as best mass removal, with their own minion immune to them or with rebirth) but they even have ton of powerful/overrstatted minion like ragebinder, lavaslasher, makajesus and such…

And as icing on the cake they even got some of the best utility like kujata or trolololflashreincarnation that not only quicken the summoning of powerful beasts but have even stronger interaction (juggernaut/oropisaur).

Not to forgot they can heal with sphere/finality/life force.

Dunno how many of you played magic but it feels like having the strong minions of green with the utility of red/blue and the healing of white.

2 Likes

Well, being Hai/Abyss main I now understand why I hate Mag.

Yeah, nice one :rofl:

Solus is at least playable, but Sarugi and Kage…

And speaking of Solus, the whole point of it is to get past Rebuke threshold immediately, so…

But honestly, Mag can’t cast Plasma and Rebuke simultaneously. So maybe statistics on each of those could be more representative.

4 Likes

Skorn sneaked in there :stuck_out_tongue:

5 Likes

In practise it’s more like playing wrath of god in a green Timmy deck. Playing either of them regularly fucks up your own board and finding situations where they actually give you an advantage are pretty rare and out of those situations it’s 90% the case of “I lost the board, play a board clear to wipe it and pass the turn because it ate all my mana and then my opponent just refills his board leaving me with no benefit at all.”

I guess in a pure solo Vaath deck they could be better but then again, solo Vaath has never been a thing in any meta so it can’t be that good either.

In my midrange deck i currently think about cutting them entirely because 9 out of 10 times i replace them anyway and even if i play them it rarely feels good because i hurt my own board almost as much as my opponents.

I mean how can people still complain about Vaath stuff when Vaath is no where in the meta and the cards this topic complains about don’t see ANY play in any Magmar deck that is in the meta? (Ah well i guess Wanderer might have them as 1 Offs and maybe some burnhorn play them so i guess if you look for a while you will find them somewhere)

2 Likes

Wait, you brought it on vaath (which i completely disagree it was never meta) cause rebuke and storm are used in starhorn and even in wanderer rag and you usually play them to destroy something that required setup so most of the time it was worth it, even if you leave and empty board and pass (which could not be the case cause your own minion could respawn with rebirth or survive rebuke/storm themselves)

I dare you to take any Magmar deck, play 100 games with it and count the number of times you had those “usual” situations your describing here. If you get a hand full i would call you lucky. Nothing against you but to me this whole topic reeks like the usual “i complain about cards i never used myself” type of thing this forum loves to do. Most of the frequent posters here frequently say themselves that they hate Magmar and hardly (if ever) play it but are always the first to complain about any decent card Magmar gets.

1 Like

Maybe the problem is in the deck, and not in the weakness of removal?

The only deck where those 2 would work really great is Solo Vaath as I said, as only there you won’t hurt yourself by using them. Something along the lines you played to S actually.

I guess a heavy Control based burn horn deck might work too but the number of times i’ve seen that in my Duelyst career don’t even reach the double digits. Burnhorn is usually tempo and minion heavy.

1 Like

You can count yourself how many top players plays plasma storm, which btw, also shuts down swarm and walls among the others. And as i said chance are that when you play it you either have minions immune to them or with rebirth. Guess i don’t have anything else to add here, we’re just in the ground of personal opinion (not denying the bias of being a non magmar player though since it’s the only faction i kinda never play… But since it was always meta i can tell you i fought vs them countless times)

Did that, disregarding Wanderer we have 5 Vaaths who all run both, 1 Starhorn who runs both and 1 out of 6 Ragnora who runs rebuke.

I admit i am really suprised to see that many Vaaths in the top 50. Guess i shouldn’t just go by the Powerrankings given that S-rankers, especially those in the top 50, often don’t care much about what’s meta/strong and what is not. In any case i will take back the part about Vaath not being Meta right now, guess he kinda is.

Nice reading skills there.

The thing that you “almost always replace and never play” those cards, together or individually, means nothing. Maybe your minions are strong enough to clear the board without spells (such a surprise for Magmar). Maybe your minions don’t clear the board, but present such threat from the start of the game that your opponent instead spends all their resources on removal, while you keep dropping minions. Maybe everyone got so used to cover-all removal that the meta simply narrowed down and the stuff which gets wiped sees little to no play.

Anyway, before demanding plays and stats from someone go ahead and provide yours. Deck lists, win rates and your success with running, say, Abyssian against Magmar, with the same info.

2 Likes

I think the one asking for nerfs, even if implicitly, is the one who should provide data as he is the one that needs to prove that a nerf is justified. Your Statistik is a start but it ignores the fact that 70% of the minions in this game aren’t used anyway, regardless of Magmar because they are just plain trash.

And it also disregards the point i am making here, about how useful they acutally are when playing them. It’s all too easy to consider a card broken when your always just on the receiving end because then you will only see the card when it works. The other times it just ends up being replaced or remains unused in hand you won’t see unless you play those cards yourself.

3 Likes
Makantor + Plasma, 113
Abyssian  5 Black Solus
Abyssian  6 Abyssal Tormentor
Abyssian  6 Klaxon
Abyssian  6 Moonrider
Abyssian  6 Vorpal Reaver
Abyssian  7 Stygian Observer
Abyssian  8 Death Knell
Abyssian  8 Grandmaster Variax
Abyssian  8 Spectral Revenant
Lyonar    4 War Judicator
Lyonar    5 Grand Strategos
Lyonar    5 Oakenheart
Lyonar    5 Windcliffe Protector
Lyonar    6 Elyx Stormblade
Lyonar    6 Prominence
Lyonar    7 Alabaster Titan
Lyonar    7 Grandmaster Z'ir
Lyonar    7 Indominus
Lyonar    7 Peacekeeper
Lyonar    8 Excelsious
Magmar    12 Mandrake
Magmar    2 Biomimetic Hulk
Magmar    3 Erratic Raptyr
Magmar    4 Gigaloth
Magmar    4 Haruspex
Magmar    4 Omniseer
Magmar    5 Lavaslasher
Magmar    5 Spirit Harvester
Magmar    5 Visionar
Magmar    6 Armada
Magmar    6 Dreadnought
Magmar    7 Silithar Elder
Magmar    7 Unstable Leviathan
Magmar    8 Juggernaut
Magmar    9 Grandmaster Kraigon
Neutral   25 Blood Taura
Neutral   3 Komodo Hunter
Neutral   3 Sellsoul
Neutral   4 Blistering Skorn
Neutral   4 Hailstone Golem
Neutral   5 Alter Rexx
Neutral   5 Blue Conjurer
Neutral   5 Boulder Breacher
Neutral   5 Brightmoss Golem
Neutral   5 Capricious Marauder
Neutral   5 Chakkram
Neutral   5 DECEPTIB0T
Neutral   5 Dancing Blades
Neutral   5 Fireblazer
Neutral   5 Golden Justicar
Neutral   5 Inquisitor Kron
Neutral   5 Quahog
Neutral   5 Sworn Defender
Neutral   5 Theobule
Neutral   6 Archon Spellbinder
Neutral   6 Diamond Golem
Neutral   6 Facestriker
Neutral   6 First Sword of Akrane
Neutral   6 Lodestar
Neutral   6 Mythron Wanderer
Neutral   6 Q'orrhlma'a
Neutral   6 Ruby Rifter
Neutral   6 S.I.L.V.E.R.
Neutral   6 Silverbeak
Neutral   6 Spriggin
Neutral   6 Storm Aratha
Neutral   6 Stormmetal Golem
Neutral   6 The Scientist
Neutral   7 Astral Crusader
Neutral   7 Dark Nemesis
Neutral   7 Drybone Golem
Neutral   7 E'Xun
Neutral   7 EMP
Neutral   7 Emberwyrm
Neutral   7 Grailmaster
Neutral   7 Mnemovore
Neutral   7 Paddo
Neutral   7 Red Synja
Neutral   7 Rook
Neutral   7 Saberspine Alpha
Neutral   7 War Talon
Neutral   7 Zurael, the Lifegiver
Neutral   8 Dagona
Neutral   8 Khymera
Neutral   8 Meltdown
Neutral   9 Worldcore Golem
Songhai   0 Hideatsu the Ebon Ox
Songhai   4 Manakite Drifter
Songhai   5 Hamon Bladeseeker
Songhai   7 Second-sword Sarugi
Songhai   7 Storm Kage
Vanar     4 Denadoro
Vanar     4 Meltwater Moose
Vanar     4 Wind Sister Maia
Vanar     5 Cloudcaller
Vanar     5 Frosthorn Rhyno
Vanar     6 Draugar Eyolith
Vanar     6 Draugar Lord
Vanar     6 Oak in the Nemeton
Vanar     7 Ancient Grove
Vanar     7 Ghost Seraphim
Vanar     8 Grandmaster Embla
Vanar     8 Matron Elveiti
Vetruvian 4 Barren Shrike
Vetruvian 5 Fifth Canopic
Vetruvian 5 Incinera
Vetruvian 5 Starfire Scarab
Vetruvian 6 Aymara Healer
Vetruvian 6 Grapnel Paradigm
Vetruvian 6 Oserix
Vetruvian 6 Pantheran
Vetruvian 6 Swarmking Scarab
Vetruvian 8 Grandmaster Nosh-Rak
Makantor + Rebuke, 121
Abyssian  5 Black Solus
Lyonar    3 Auroara
Lyonar    3 Decorated Enlistee
Lyonar    3 Silverguard Knight
Lyonar    4 Ironcliffe Monument
Lyonar    4 Sunbreaker
Lyonar    4 Suntide Maiden
Lyonar    4 War Judicator
Lyonar    5 Ironcliffe Guardian
Lyonar    5 Oakenheart
Lyonar    5 Second Sun
Lyonar    5 War Exorcist
Lyonar    6 Prominence
Lyonar    7 Alabaster Titan
Lyonar    7 Grandmaster Z'ir
Lyonar    7 Indominus
Lyonar    7 Peacekeeper
Magmar    2 Warpup
Magmar    3 Oropsisaur
Magmar    3 Terradon
Magmar    4 Beastclad Hunter
Magmar    4 Omniseer
Magmar    5 Kolossus
Magmar    5 Lavaslasher
Magmar    5 Visionar
Magmar    6 Armada
Magmar    6 Dreadnought
Magmar    8 Juggernaut
Magmar    9 Grandmaster Kraigon
Neutral   2 Carcynus
Neutral   3 Architect-T2K5
Neutral   3 Bastion
Neutral   3 Komodo Hunter
Neutral   3 Prongbok
Neutral   3 Sapphire Seer
Neutral   3 Sellsoul
Neutral   3 Sojourner
Neutral   3 Wind Stopper
Neutral   4 Blistering Skorn
Neutral   4 Chassis of MECHAZ0R
Neutral   4 Hailstone Golem
Neutral   4 Hsuku
Neutral   4 Loreweaver
Neutral   4 Moebius
Neutral   4 Night Watcher
Neutral   4 Primus Shieldmaster
Neutral   4 Purgatos, The Realmkeeper
Neutral   4 Silhouette Tracer
Neutral   4 Spelljammer
Neutral   4 Sunsteel Defender
Neutral   4 Tethermancer
Neutral   5 Alcuin Fugitive
Neutral   5 Beastbound Savage
Neutral   5 Blue Conjurer
Neutral   5 Brightmoss Golem
Neutral   5 Chirpuka
Neutral   5 Dagger Kiri
Neutral   5 Dancing Blades
Neutral   5 Envybaer
Neutral   5 Firestarter
Neutral   5 Golden Justicar
Neutral   5 Impervious Giago
Neutral   5 Inquisitor Kron
Neutral   5 Letigress
Neutral   5 Lux Ignis
Neutral   5 Rawr
Neutral   5 Sworn Defender
Neutral   5 Theobule
Neutral   5 Twilight Sorcerer
Neutral   6 Bonereaper
Neutral   6 Diamond Golem
Neutral   6 Eclipse
Neutral   6 Facestriker
Neutral   6 Lodestar
Neutral   6 Magesworn
Neutral   6 Ruby Rifter
Neutral   6 Silverbeak
Neutral   7 Dark Nemesis
Neutral   7 E'Xun
Neutral   7 Pandora
Neutral   7 War Talon
Neutral   7 Whistling Blade
Neutral   7 Zurael, the Lifegiver
Neutral   8 Khymera
Songhai   3 Celestial Phantom
Songhai   3 Mizuchi
Songhai   4 Bakezori
Songhai   4 Kindling
Songhai   4 Massacre Artist
Songhai   4 Storm Sister Alkyone
Songhai   4 Wildfire Tenketsu
Songhai   5 Scarlet Viper
Songhai   6 Grandmaster Zendo
Songhai   7 Calligrapher
Songhai   7 Second-sword Sarugi
Songhai   7 Storm Kage
Vanar     3 Freeblade
Vanar     4 Denadoro
Vanar     4 Meltwater Moose
Vanar     4 Sleet Dasher
Vanar     4 Wind Sister Maia
Vanar     5 Cloudcaller
Vanar     5 Frostiva
Vanar     6 Draugar Eyolith
Vanar     6 Draugar Lord
Vanar     7 Ghost Seraphim
Vetruvian 2 Ethereal Obelysk
Vetruvian 3 Atom Klinger
Vetruvian 3 Fireblaze Obelysk
Vetruvian 3 Imperial Mechanyst
Vetruvian 3 Portal Guardian
Vetruvian 3 Simulacra Obelysk
Vetruvian 4 Trygon Obelysk
Vetruvian 4 Wasteland Wraith
Vetruvian 5 Fifth Canopic
Vetruvian 5 Gust
Vetruvian 5 Incinera
Vetruvian 5 Nimbus
Vetruvian 5 Starfire Scarab
Vetruvian 6 Swarmking Scarab
Vetruvian 8 Grandmaster Nosh-Rak
2 Likes

If I could build a deck, I certainly would. Even if I strongly dislike the cards, I’m interested to know how stuff plays out, to know how to play against it better. However, my collection is still limited and spending heaps of spirit just to prove a point to you is not an option.
I did the best measurement I could think of and it proved my ideas. If you can suggest another, immediately available measurement for me to do - go ahead. If not - it’s your turn to provide the numbers.

Also, being on the receiving end is useful experience also, I still suggest you try it.

1 Like

To be honest, i don’t think balance issues can be determined or even solved just by numbers and measures, if it was that easy there wouldn’t be so many games with balance issues. It could be solved with a formula. So no, there is no immediately available measurement i can give you that works better because all of them are only a faccet of the truth.

I have 4-7 ribbons with every faction in the game so I already know both ends very well but that’s indeed a good suggestion in general.

2 Likes

Yeah, talking specifically about Magmar, there is another important point to consider.
They may not run all 3 named cards but only 2 of them, with Plasma and Rebuke being interchangeable depending on preference or deck.
But both Plasma and Rebuke are widely used and I can not know, which one I face. And even if I have options against one or the other by itself (which is not the case with Abyssian anyway), options against both are almost nonexistent.
Which, in turn, proves my point that Magmar has almost no weakness in removal as a faction, though specific decks mat not necessary use all of the options.

1 Like

This analysis might be partial and not considering certain game’s variables, but brings us some numbers that reveal an effective advantage or disadvantage of certain factions in relation to Magmar, and this resonates particularly considering that it’s a faction with a huge variety of tools to cover almost every aspect of the game.
Since Duelyst deals with probability and rng I think the results you obtained are worth consideration.

6 Likes

The problematic card that has changed the balance of magmar is rebuke. Before this stupid card was printed magmar was weak to big minions if they were well positioned (no natselect/egg morph). Same with swam of 4+ attack minions, wich is also hard to pull off and needed to be putted out of makantor.
Rebuke fix all of this weakness and for just 4 mana. Im an abyss main and the first month after this card was printed i became mad. If there is a single card that i would nerf to absolute garbage in the entire game this is rebuke (and yes im counting wanderer)

3 Likes

So there are a bunch of factors you seem to be overlooking. All of Magmars removal is conditional and or linear. This is a major balancing factor because it means you can always play around their removal suite and they cant just remove something just because they feel like it unless you let them. While their board wipes are strong, they tend to be only as strong as you let them be, if they are forced to use them in non optimal situations not only due they tend to pale in comparison to other factions removal, they are still not guaranteed to work at all. The fact that they lack unconditional removal AND their effects have counterplay, AND they are supposed to be the control faction means this aspect of them is extremely balanced.

That being said there are other aspects of magmar which are pretty gross problems like deci/spikes and Ragnora.

Faction match ups aside, notice the majority of the units resistant to the magmar package are in neutral, AND a good chunk of them are super good? This means you always have the option to prepare your self for the match up with both decent and non niche cards unless you are just choosing to accept having a bad match up versus them.

And another factor you are overlooking is if you took these tools away not only would Magmar likely end up to weak, but you would have taken away important checks and balances that keep some very toxic polarizing things from becoming to prevalent. Notice in my balance patch a big thing I did was add a lot more minions that were resistant to the magmar removal package rather then targeting the package its self. There is so much more counterplay to magmar then there are to many other decks.

Is magmar strong? Absolutely. But there is a reason they have never been the top tier deck, and instead are just always good and towards the top (aside from rag who got pushed to far and every agrees needs some attention) Its because they have a generally healthy stable shell with built in counterplay. Magmar is great at stomping new players because they do not understand how to counter it, and that’s sort of where it gets its brainless reputation. But in high tier play magmar actually requires a ton of skill to play both as and against.

Countering Magmar:

If you overextend to the point that a board wipe is going to prevent you from coming back after they spent their entire turn to do so and or lost their field in the process this is your fault not theirs. By playing two units with different stats, or the sweet spot of 4/5 which just ignores it all, you can easily put your self in a position that Nat select wont target the important unit, and plasma/rebuke wont wipe more then one thing, or two at most. Lavalance is good but it misses a lot of important targets and is conditional, and when it is a thing that means you don’t need to worry about nat select or plasma because they are super counter productive with that list. Makantor while a powerful staple can have its impact drastically reduced with good positioning.

Have the strongest point of your curve at or below eight mana, which is pretty normal. Pack dispel for Vaath/Eggs. Pack ping, and or anything to buff your generals attack vs ragnora. Provoke can also go a long way to stopping various combos since all of magmars stuff is board oriented. The 4/5 stat line, which isn’t uncommon, dodges plasma, makantor, lance, and Lavalasher. And anything that has more health then attk dodges rebuke, which is also a linear effect, so as always you shouldn’t be overextending vs the faction with the best AOE. You can also easily play around frenzy with diagonal placement.

Not only do these things greatly tilt the match up in your favor, but they are all just good deck building fundamentals that will leave you prepared for a whole host of match ups.

@melkorita
Power rankings tend to be pretty solid. However skill is still a massive factor in the game, although less so these days due to high RNG and various uncounterable strategies, but skill is still a massive factor. A good player can play whatever they want and do well. Notice I will never be caught dead playing most of the top meta decks yet I still manage top 50/top ten.

@alplod Black solus has been forgotten again and is no longer needed, but breifly during the Finality meta I was using him to stomp all over magmar as the trick was keep his stats just in the sweet spot until you are ready to trade with them, then let him go crazy. But he is not good enough in todays meta cus non rag magmar is not very common.

Edit: And on a side note. Ramp is fine, if a card is a problem due to ramp that is a problem with the card not the ramp. If something is so strong that getting it out early is a problem that is the cards fault not flash.

3 Likes