Duelyst Forums

Can we measure the level of balance issues?

#21

Tbh magmar is definitely the strongest and most versatile of the factions atm.
I by myself have played 12 differing archetypes in the faction alone and have made it to top 10 for some time (generally falling out due to inactivity or switching factions).

Removal package definitely makes the game play on easy mode (like seriously, even with minimal removal, many decks are a joke to pilot). Also, please do not counter argue that removal costs development. All three generals pack wincons which do not require development outside of a burst combo (to say nothing of chained makantors). Even vaath is quite powerful outside of the fault mu, which is still winnable with fast lists.

That said, mag really is only a tad overtuned and doesn’t need drastic nerfs.

What I have proposed in the past:

Ripper - lose celerity, but can move an extra space: frees up design space, makes it so playing vs rag isn’t starting at a 10pt health disadvantage while playing 1 - 5 mana under curve every bbs turn. Also opens a ton of design space for cards in the same vein as erratic raptyr, which is awesome.

Lava lance - cost 2: self explanatory. There is no reason why the most threatening bbs in the game concurrently enables a tempo swing of this caliber.

Flash reincarnation - delete, rework to a meme, etc. Stops enabling wanderer rag and other toxic archetypes like burnhorn and buildmar

Rebuke - to cost 5. Big board clear deserves to at least compete with plasma during the deckbuilding phase. Another aspect noted on minions living plasma + rebuke is that people often disregard how going face brings a ton of minions into rebuke range. And yet we wonder why so many decks are oriented to more toxic burn and aggro atm… can’t rebuke my golden vitriol, son.

Anyway, food for thought based on my experience.

12 Likes
#22

Good thread thanks!

I’ve never understood why some people object to complaining about things they find frustrating in decks that aren’t dominant in S-Rank. It’s like “oh you’re facing a lot of frustrating cards in Silver? Well, your frustration doesn’t matter because the deck’s not an issue at the highest level of play right now.”

6 Likes
#23

The thing with Magmar is not just that heir cards are too strong, but that they have too many strong cards. While other factions may be fuming at the mouth to have cards like Catalyst Quillbeast, Plasma Storm, and Deep Impact, Magmar doesn’t even mainboard most of these.

Deep Impact is pretty much a better Punish

5 Likes
#24

I never said that skill doesnt matter, i just linked that post to show how magmar is meta and how many people in the top 50 uses plasma storm (i wont go into the argument of skill vs cards cause it would be offtopic).

Anyway i thought that magmar was supposed to be the big fat ass minion faction, not the control one, and it’s in fact a mess cause they are both and more.

Not saying that they are unbeatable or anything, just that some cards (namely, the ones mentioned by @owlbeastmd, but not only imho) are so good that they have an unfair starting advantage.

Edit: also the removal could be conditional but consider that
1 lava lance is just too good for ragnora, when they created it at least it required some kind of setup, now with 2 mana you have a nice clear plus 10 damage ready for the next turn.

2 natural selection might be conditional but when you manage to hit the target you want it means that for you also can develop a board. I’d take lava lance and natural selec over dark transformation/blood of air/aspects/whatever any time of the day for that.

3 also i’m not sure it’s healthy for the game to create this kind of checks and balances… I mean, plasma storm itself means that swarm lili will always have a hard counter

#25

In your own topic you said several times, that you are getting tired from arguing over the same thing again and again. Now I feel the same. Overall you look like you have a good idea on the game and balancing, and you seem reasonable. But when it comes to Magmar, you are just a zealot. You like them more than any other faction, which is strange at the very least, given your nickname.

Why Magmar player should care about “spending his whole turn”, if his minions are generally bigger, have higher cost efficiency and allow building a board faster? And when BBS alone can win the game?

How Magmar’s stuff is board-oriented? That they leave a minion behind after removing yours? That they hit you in the face instead of burning out of hand? They have a removal option for, roughly, 90% of minion threats. Removing 9 boards out of 10 is board-oriented? And then you go on on how burn decks are unfair. When burn is my only option for winning - that is unfair. The fact that removal is so dominant - that is what promotes “toxic” decks, and Magmar promotes it.

Play neutrals? 4/5 stats? Are you kidding me? I’m here to play faction themes and not generic stuff with slight flavour. Why even bother with choosing or having factions, if 2/3 of your deck are always the same? It bothered me when I was checking your deck lists, now I think I know why it is so.

And Magmar are not a control faction, and never were. They may have some control-oriented builds, but every faction has them. They are a removal faction, if anything, as all their current “control” is “I remove your stuff if I don’t like it”. And the problem is not just that they have strong removal, it is that they have abundance of removal options, half of which also do something else.

You want to keep that removal? You want Magmar to become a control faction? Fine, go ahead, but take their stats, their crazy value minions. Right now you want to have control and have minions and not lose to burn, which is very much like “my stuff should be the best”.

I don’t really want to offend you @deathsadvocate but it really annoys me how you bring up certain issues game-wide but refuse to see them specifically in Magmar.
 

 

A thing I want to remind. While I started talking on Magmar specifically, this is not a strictly Magmar thread. This is an attempt to measure certain game elements against each other, against similar elements or between factions. If you have ideas for such comparisons - suggest them.

9 Likes
#26

You never played in the beta did you?

#28

According to the game, I have played for 29 seasons. Earlier ones were in Silver. I don’t know when the beta was.

#29

I’ve never played in the beta, but according to what I’ve heard somewhere, Magmar used to be a control faction with Plasma Storm and Metamorphosis.

#30

I think that was 1 month before the beta ended, for the entirity of the Beta Magmar was control based to the point where anything else was a meme. It makes sense that you wouldn’t pick-up on that as you were low ladder.

1 Like
#31

Let me try to explain.

Lets say you have a small child and your trying to teach him how to ride a bike. Obviously, on his first try he will fall off and hurt himself. What are you going to tell him in that situation?

  1. Since you fell off, your bike must be broken, lets go get you a new one.

or

  1. This happens when you try to learn something, just get back up and try again.

Ps. There is just one correct answer here if you want him to be a decent human being at some Point.

5 Likes
#32

I mean, learning to ride a bike is great and all, you can have a lot of fun riding with your friends and going to the beach or something but there’s that and then there’s trying to teach your toddler how to do survival games off-road mountain biking.

1 Like
#33

For some reason devs didnt understand that and constantly fix magmar weakness in every expansion to today situation. The only exeption beeing UP wich actually was the only meta where magmar was not tier 1.

#34

You have a child and you’re teaching him to ride a bike. You give him a bike for grown-ups, which he can’t climb on, and if he does, he immediately falls off. When your child gets hurt and upset, you tell him that this is the only proper bike, that he will be able to ride it when he grows up so he should start growing.

1 Like
#35

You have a small child learning how to ride a bike. You instead give him an 18 wheeler with an overclocked engine which shits eggs out of the rear trailer. After a long and relatively unhindered swath of terror, you finally manage to cull the bloodshed by baiting the truck into a ravine. The child is hurt and upset, believing he was genuinely the better driver and out-drove you.

You open your mouth to say something before looking back on the miles of bloodied tarmac. You let the poison win.

“Git gud, ya little shit.”

11 Likes
#36

I think the point most of us are trying to make by extending your analogy is that the amount of power Magmar currently has is beyond the realm of git gud. I’m sure there are many top players who can deal with the control package but just as you can’t expect a toddler who only wants to ride a bike to suddenly start riding 18 wheelers, you can’t expect players in Gold/Diamond to start playing the game at a level similar to top 50.

3 Likes
#37

I decided to do some more weird math, and got weird results. Of course, they are not entirely accurate (and may be completely inaccurate).

Average attack/average health/average mana cost per point of stat.

Abyssian  3.7/3.1/1.7
Lyonar    2.9/4.8/2.0
Magmar    3.9/4.6/2.1
Songhai   2.9/4.0/2.0
Vanar     3.5/3.9/2.0
Vetruvian 2.7/4.2/1.8
Neutral   3.4/4.4/1.9

Stats rounded.

Abyssian  4/3
Lyonar    3/5
Magmar    4/5
Songhai   3/4
Vanar     4/4
Vetruvian 3/4
Neutral   3/4
9 Likes
#38

Abyssians are the cheapest!

Abyss is OP! Summon @anjosustrakr!

But really, it’s quite predictable to have Lyonar and Magmar on top. These are the noob-friendly facions, which do not have much of spectacular synergies or effects, winning by raw overwhelming force instead. Other factions are a bit more…hm…complex. I’m actually surprised to see Vanar having the same rounded stat sum as Lyo, btw.

Desolator is shit statwise, but we all know how useful it is.

That said, Magmar actually trumps Lyonar even in this department, and Magmar removal is unarguably superior overall, so…

Your statistical research is fun to read and discuss, thanks for doing it! :slight_smile:

7 Likes
#39

WHO DARES SUMMON ME?

Oh, it’s you.

We all knew, deep down, that Abyssian was OP. But now we have statistical proof. Well done, @zerounderscoreou! This is what I have been seeking for a millennia!

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

2 Likes
#40

Yep, Lyonar should absolutely be the top one in this statistic, not Magmar.

1 Like
#41

I would be fine with Magmar having the better raw stats on average if Lyonar had significantly better stat buffs to compensate but it’s pretty hard to beat Greater Fortitude on that front.

4 Likes