Ziran is so satisfying to play!

[deathsadvocate]

There is a big difference between toxic and overpowered. While they often go hand in hand this is not always the case. None of the various Spellhai decks are overpowered but they are extremely toxic. Rag is the opposite.

Toxic=A lack of significant counter-play, interaction, solitaire style play, and or unhealthy RNG. Egg Rag pings basically none of those. That being said he has by far the most raw power of the top four, which gets evened out with the others due to various counters, lots of counterplay, and probably the highest skill cap.

Extra Ironic due to the fact that Burn Ziran hard counters him and he has an abysmal win rate vs her. Excess pings/aoe makes killing eggs easy, the ease of buffing her atk makes ripper combos useless, and her speed makes lategame options like finality and or extinction not really feasible. And she does not even pack provokes which is another common way of dealing with him.

[unktrial1]

I’m sure we can agree that unconditional out of hand damage is toxic.

One of the most common toxic combos in this game is Decispikes. This does:
a 8 mana, 2 card, 1 bbs, 11 damage, 3 self damage.

Egg rag has egg+hatch+Greater Fortitude combo. This does:
a 6 mana, 2 card, 1 bbs, 10 damage, 0 self damage.

The toxicity of egg+hatch is as bad as, if not worse than, Decispikes.

[deathsadvocate]

I do agree that unconditional out of hand damage is toxic. I do agree Rag and Rippers are very over powered. I do agree that Decispikes is Toxic, HOWEVER it is the least toxic of out of hand bursts.

Also both of these have major conditions and counter-play unlike proper burn. The hatch combo can be stopped dead in its tracks by something as simple as good positioning, a general atk buff, or provoke. Not even remotely toxic, but yes extremely overpowered. Hatch cards, Rippers themselves, or his support need to be taken down a peg for sure.

Decispikes is pretty gross, however if it does not kill it can be punished severely for feeding cards to the opponent, and if you apply pressure and get Starhorns health low it can not even be used. Spikes is something I would want addressed but only after all of the actual zero counterplay options are first.

You have managed to list the two most conditional out of hand bursts with the most counterplay.

Compared to Eight Gates, Mantra, and any point and click burn like Beam, these are practically healthy.

But all of the top four need to be taken down a peg for different reasons.

Wanderer for being unhealthy crapshoot RNG AND being Op.

Burn Ziran for uncounterable out of hand burst.

Rag for simply being Overpowered.

And Khanumkha for being, again, uncounterable out of hand damage, and that warps the meta so much by removing General ATK buffs that it has removed both Rag and Zirans natural checks and balances.

[stephdawnheart]

Hey, I remember running into you

Don’t listen to all the people saying you shouldn’t play X or you shouldn’t play Y. You should play whatever the heck you want. Nobody has any right to dump on your happiness when you’ve worked so long and hard to earn S-rank for the first time.

[deathsadvocate]

Oh for sure, all my personal griping, philosphy, and some derailment aside I did want to emphasize:

But I am glad you are having fun, and Burn Ziran also takes some skill, so if you are enjoying it that’s the most important thing.

I would obviously prefer to see you be a non burn player, and would love to help out should you ever pursue something else.

[nh3maser]

Once you look past Fault, Vetruvian actually has a bunch of fun and powerful decks. This is mostly because the omnipresent deck core of First Wish, 2-cost Golems, and 5-cost spot removal is already strong enough to win a lot of games, so you can throw whatever you want together with it and have success. In fact, it seems like the most popular Vetruvian decks right now are various builds of Zirix/Ciphyron Midrange, which is literally just this deck core plus generic strong midcost minions without too much concern for synergy.

ReliqVet

As far as I know, this could refer to one of two different decks: Dying Wish Vet and AlphaCentury’s Patheriquarian Vet. Both are fun to play to be sure but require high spirit investment into cards that aren’t commonly played outside these specific decks, so you need to think about what you want to focus on in advance.

MrMana’s DW Vet

Pantheriquarian

Other good Vet decks:
Aggro. I’m partial to low-curve builds with Zirix like the one below, but Sajj builds like the ones found here with the Accumulonimbus + Fireblaze combo finish look interesting too. These decks also tend to be relatively cheap spirit-wise, as is the norm for aggro.

Swarm. This is a good one to pick up if you just want to try something different for a few games since it offers an unique experience for Vetruvian, and you probably have all of the cards already.

AlphaCentury’s Spinecleaver Sajj. Sajj has always been the black sheep of Vetruvian, but this list does a good job of being competitive while still feeling like an uniquely Sajj deck.

PhoinexFlame’s Ciphyron Golems. I’ve always had a soft spot for tribal decks, and this is one of my favorites. It feels like it has the tools to compete in any matchup.

[atrestia]

I really love the discussion here so far.
I was able to pick up one of the decks discussed here “raggro” and wow it’s really fun.
It doesn’t feel as strong as Ziran but still a blast when you get those bbs+hatch+greater fortitude combos!

[phayze]

He just falls farther and farther, is he beyond redemption?

[phayze]

Thanks for these! This will definitely give me something to do when I have the time to play dooly again

[randomex]

A couple of other builds of Pantheriquarian Zirix:

Vbcfbhc:

Wimpish:

[terrarius]

This brings back memorys of an old discussion-

Are you sure that “toxic” has 1 set definition ? I think it is very subjective.
To you stuff without any counterplay is toxic
To me stuff that is OP is toxic-even if it has alot of counterplay

[deathsadvocate]

It can certainly be pushed into subjective territory, but I was trying to make an important distinction between overpowered and problematic. There will pretty much always be something that is overpowered, but there does not have to be “toxic” things. One really should not even be present in the game, the other might need a small adjustment.

And if you can hard counter something across all factions how strong it is really shouldn’t matter. Although in this case it Rag has gone a bit to far, and I also agree it should be addressed.

It is perfectly valid to take more an issue with Op things rather than things that lack counter-play, but in that case we fundamentally disagree on design.

I was doing my best to explain why I do not find Rag toxic and take more issue with the other examples, rather then debating the philosophical interpretation of “toxic”

[atrestia]

Aggro Ziran is fun and all but a control oriented version is also just as satisfying.
After struggling to get passed rank 1 with my usual deck I switched to a more control style deck with Aperion’s claim, War Excrocist and a couple of provoke minions and I was able to easily get there with 5 back to back wins!
Starting to fall in love with this general.

[phayze]

Ah see, I want to see your control variant
Something that can run War Exorcist has my immediate interest

[terrarius]

If only control zit"an would not be very matchup dependent.
Face aggro?GG EZ
Face anthing with a superior wincon (like wanderer and fault)? Guess you will die.

[humancalc]

I believe a slower Ziran should be able to survive Fault. Unless Kha somehow affected the matchup. Games can last quite long though.
There are a number of tools to deal with Fault itself.
Aperion, Cleric to overide tiles.
Sunrisers can clear stuff again and again if it sticks.
I used to have 3 X Sunblooms. Helps againsts Fault. Also helps against Desolators. It is embarrassing to get out healed by a single card.

The slower the deck, the more you struggle with trial decks for sure.
You will also likely see and hate EMP more .

[excogitator]

Control Ziran would be bonkers if it had some powerful consistent lategame. Before Meltdown was nerfed, Ziran would just run a few of those, and ping down the opponent in the lategame. Now, lyonar’s suit of lategame plays are either too reactive, or easy to answer compared to what the other kids are running.

I used to like 2/4 that makes your bbs tempest in lategame Lyonar decks, since it 1 shots Fault dervishes and buffed eggs, and provides consistent chip damage.

[phayze]

Time for Peacekeeper to make his debut!

[deathsadvocate]

Happy to hear it! Control Zirian is a very healthy and solid archetype. It is slightly outclassed by the aggro variant, although ironically hard counters it pretty well.

[rook]

Speaking of Ziran how do we feel about Alabaster Ziran, idk if it’s aggro or control or whatever, but it’s kinda fun especially when people play stuff like basilisk against it and it never procs .