I know their weaknesses. The point I’m trying to make is that against magmar it’s either stomp or get stomped.
There’s very little game to be played.
They are single handedly responsible for the majority of the polorized match ups in this game but they hate it when a deck (Like fault for example) does the same thing to them that they do to literally hundreds of other decks.
Also did you just recommend Mechazor? come on man… It’s 2020.
Why is Fault hated? Cause even without Kha it’s basically 6 mana Variax equivalent. With Kha it’s just unbearable.
Do you know any CCG where it is actually about starving out the opponent insted of stalling until the “i win button”?
I disagree with your style of “discussion”.
While people try to give you arguments and talk about the problem at hand, you practically start the thread by being very emotionally, throwing generalisations around and attacking people.
To me it seems you don’t want to have a discussion, it is only about bashing Magmar and other players.
That’s sad and disappointing.
Bullshit. Solo Hai archetypes already beat Vaath with ~100% winrate, having also a positive matchup against Wanderer Rag, dunno of Pregnora. Healyonar is also pretty good.
And now we mention subpar tier 100 archetypes like they matter.
Which is…? Juggernaut? Silithar Elder? Finality? Which endgame card is overtuned?
The problem in Magmar is actually their unbeatable midgame, 3-5 mana. Their endgame options are not so awesome. Compare any Mag card to Variax, Ice Age/Wake or, actually, anything else e.g. Abyssian has for their endgame. The problem is these factions are not always able to reach their deadly endgame with cheap and efficient AoE and stupidly big and persistent bodies Mag can deploy T2-3 + rippers running around the board. Fault is only 6 mana though and is enough distraction. Even without Kha.
My words indicate that I hate Magmar as much as you do, bro, but let us not imagine power in places Magmar actually has weakness.
Just here to say, I played Magmar in my 2 first seasons from then on - they are my dust faction.
It is pretty unfortunate. Usually I enjoy these discussions and use them as an opportunity to help teach people some important fundamentals about beating Magmar, and the general state of the meta. Which in turn improve their positioning ability across the board. But this guy seems to be stuck in the new player trap of writing off something they do not really understand as OP. But I will give it one more shot at shifting this towards a constructive discussion.
We have veered super off topic into det mgr, but I think your initial questions of why people have issues with Vet have been pretty well answered. Being simply that it is a tier 0 deck, but with folks not necessarily agreeing as to why. This is a whole separate discussion but lets proceed anyways:
A check and balance is something that forces a deck to build to be prepared for it so it does not get hard countered, which in turn slightly weakens its match ups elsewhere shifting away from polarized match ups and evening the playing field across all matches. Like for example with Vaath in the mix Rag can not just rely on hyper focused ripper combos and instead needs to build with ATK buffs in mind that way it does not just auto loose to atk buffs, which makes it a little weaker vs non atk buff decks, and now we have a balanced state. Compared to KhanumKha which does the exact opposite of completely deleting ATK buffs from the meta creating a polarized rock paper scissor effect of letting Rippers Run unchecked. Now leaving a host of lists built in a polarized fashion rather than a balanced meta.
Vaath already has a host of checks and balances from dispel, artifacts, stats that dodge all of his removal which absolutely exist and tend to belong to great cards available to everyone like Kron, avoiding over extending, simple body blocking, provoke, and the list goes on. Non Rag Mag is not even top tier, and Rag runs basically zero of the cards you are complaining about.
All the cards you are complaining about have loads of counter-play and tend to be linear effects that DO NOT leave a board behind. In general reactive things are almost never a problem.
Before Kha this was exactly the case and it was a super fun matchup on either side where the more skilled player tended to win. Again I take no issue with fault.
Everyone is right there with you saying Rag is overtuned. Rag problems are not Magmar problems. Khanumkha actually makes the Rag problems quite a bit worse to. Grow and Apex are trash tier decks.
If you just run away that is a big part of your problem. Positioning is a huge skill and is way more then running away, simply running away leaves you trapped in a corner. You should be focusing on controlling the middle of the board only backing up when you absolutely have to that way you have plenty of space to body block. If you run away two spaces when you only needed to move to a diagonal spot, up, or one space back where you can body block completely you have trapped your self.
If you have been controlling the middle of the board you can often prevent said general from moving up and be in the position to back off out of reach of non flying rush to avoid lethal. The key here is AVOIDING LETHAL. If you backed up early on before you needed to and gave up center control now you trapped your self and you are going to be punished by that rush, rather then punishing the other persons limited reach. Magmar is all about positioning. LITERALLY all of their removal and minions can be dodged with some combination of good stats and or positioning. They have the most conditional removal in the game. Rebuke/Plasma are completely foiled by 4/5s, and as long as you have not over extended, playing these is often a turn waster leaving them in a reactive position. Dodging Lavaslahser simply requires you to play a minion back a square and then body block with your general. Frenzy is foiled by diagonal stair-step positioning. Nat select is dodged by playing two units, keeping the weaker unit out of punch range usually as a globe contestor. And if they spent a nat select to remove a 2 drop that clears the way for your real threats anyways.
Let me share one of my posts from one of your older threads that covers a lot of this stuff really well:
The specific bit of that post that I want to reference:
Right now you should be focusing on learning fundamentals and how to beat Magmar, instead of just jumping from one top tier deck to another every-time you start to run into an issue. You have already jumped from Vanar to Burn Ziran to Rag to Fault. Instead of taking the time to master one of these or just master a particular faction and your own playstyle you keep jumping around looking for the easy win.
The truth is ANY of these and most other decent archtypes once mastered can absolutely put up a fair fight and or stomp Magmar. Focus on learning your positioning and how to avoid their stuff and suddenly Magmar will start to seem easy to beat until you start facing stronger opponents and then it will be pretty even and more often then not come down to the better player. (Rag and Wanderer aside)
Playing as and against magmar is all about superior positioning and knowing the match up. But yes they will be easy mode/bullies until you get more experienced.
Unfortunately due to Kha, Burn Ziran, Wanderer, and Rag we do have a lot of polarization mixed with a tier zero chokehold. Which is why I was very sad when you moved away from Vanar. They won’t give you easy wins and while they do not have the raw power of the tier zeros they are pretty much the only way to avoid the polarized matchup game as they can still outskill them all with enough mastery.
All of them?
Not on their own and definietely not if these were other faction cards. But in combination with everything else Magmar is good at they are overpowered.
If you play Magmar and fail to kill me before I reach the end game you should simply fall over and die.
Let me start by saying fault has multiple means of counterplay. In return for the massive board state advantage you generate for the rest of the game, you lack dedicated healing and burst vs generals which haven’t boosted their attack. My brother (TM25) and I hit both hit s in under 60 wins in part by preying on fault players (including our OP), him using mantra’s dedicated burn to outrace his opponents and I using hatefurnace (write-up soon) to take advantage of faults low burst to enable a swing once my destiny came online. Artifact Songhai also does well, knocking zirix into the single digits before fault comes online enabling you to close the game out with one of your 9 burn spells or a teleport-bangle combo.
That said, the deck is overcentralizing, cutting many forms of vaath out of the meta while allowing a multitude of burn decks to run unchecked. In addition, Khanuum Ka represents a free board clear against any minion which has 3 or more attack. With those two cards, you blanket check a large portion of the meta and can tech from there. Add to that vet’s formidable ability to cycle through their deck in dream shaper, first wish, and jammer, and you get a deck which is not only powerful, but uncharacteristically flexible and consistent in its draw for its wincon.
Imo, fault isn’t necessarily unhealthy, but the combo of it plus Khanuum Ka covers too many weaknesses. One or the other must go, with my vote leaning toward the latter.
@atrestia none of the magmar wincons you listed are broken. Flash reincarnation is the true enabler in magmar and if you were to hit anything, it’d be that.
I think that anyone who had seen dragall play magmar would disagree that magmar should be trashed.
The true enabler to Magmar is that I can still click the green man in the deck builder and make a deck! REEEEEEEEE!!! /s
remembering dragall in 2020 pepehands
Ok, here’s a similar argument.
Fault+Kha is a check and balance for Vaath to play lightbender so that it does not get hard countered, which in turn slightly weakens its match ups elsewhere shifting away from polarized match ups (and don’t pretend Vaath doesn’t have any) evening the playing field across all matches.
Or even better yet you could completely cripple rippers and other egg related cards.
You’re saying it’s ok to include something overpowered with polorized match ups in the game such as rippers and their combos if there are hard counters in this case Vaath. But I fail to see how the exact same thing shouldn’t apply to Vaath.
If it were up to me, I’d skip the entire problem by not including that overpowered things in the very first place as I’m genuinly against hard counters of all kind, not just the ones that affect my favorite general (in your case being Vaath)
So hey let’s remove Rag followed by Vaath (and Starhorn too cuz why not it’s still magmar) and then I’ll be convinced that Fault doesn’t belong in the game.
Until then you have a very difficult case to make.
I’m going to go through everything you just mentioned and tell you why none of that really works.
First of all that’s not true. Grow is an example of a deck that runs both Rag and Plasma Storm.
Second of all, I’m not too concerened with the tier list. I’m saying if you’re against polorized match ups the biggest offender is Magmar which counters any minion based deck meaning the majority of them.
Magmar is what necessitates decks like Fault in the first place. If you can accept your favorite faction hard countering other decks it’s hypocritical to argue fault is unfair because it hard counters your favorite faction.
Either hard countering is a bad thing in which case remove the entirety of Magmar followed by swarm and all forms of aggro, artifact, and spell heavy decks or hard countering is healthy in which case Fault is healthy! You can’t have it both ways.
They leave non of the opponents minions behind…
Am I going to kill my eggs with rebuke?
Am I going to kill my grow minions with plasma storm?
Cards like makantor and lava lance don’t even affect your own minions so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
Again I don’t care whether they are trash tier or not.
Imagine this: You are fighting someone that will beat you in close quarter combat. But if you avoid close range, they get stronger and will beat you.
This makes very very little sense. This is the very definition of a lose lose hopeless scenario.
A heavy melee faction should lose if they fail to close the distance. Not win anyways.
This IS the game lol…
I think you’re trapped in a past where duelyst used to be about precise positioning and minion placement. I’m sorry but if you really think that’s the kind of game duelyst still is I think you need to reevaluate your judgement.
The first step to making duelyst about all those fundamental skills is making minion based strategies powerful again and it all starts with deleting Magmar then you can tend to other problems that the presence of Magmar made prevalent such as SpellHai or Fault which you dislike.
You really managed to miss most of my points and now are making a lot of wild assumptions. First of all I am an Abyss/Vanar main, only than followed by Magmar. Vaath is far from a favorite. I have been trying to explain to you all the ways you can wreck magmar in general as I do with every other faction. Magmar is quite good but is pretty fair and balanced all around aside from Rag who is way overtuned. Magmar is extremely board reliant.
Lightbender/Dispel are great cards for most decks that strengthen their matchups all around, and are an excellent counter to Vaath and Fault. However it is horrendous in Vaath since it shoots him in the foot most of the time to play it at all. Vaath just does not have that as an option as not only is it terrible for him, in order for him to use it vs tiles he now will likely have to dispel his own Win Con (Himself). There is a HUGE difference between a check and balance, and something that causes polarizing meta warping. Fault/Aymara and similar check and balance Vaath. Kha causes polarization. These are not even remotely similar cases and are quite the opposite, it just does not work to switch in the words Vaath and Kha in that paragraph even a little bit.
No where did I ever say polarizing things, hard counters, or that eggs were ok. EVERYONE here agrees with you on these, yet you keep spouting them off and insulting folks. Everyone agrees here, this is in no way a counter point to the rest of this discussion. The only thing I said on this point was that Kha makes an already bad problem even worse in regards to rag by removing checks and balances. Kha is a polarizing hard counter that warps the meta further in favor of Rag who is a huge problem, but Kha/Burn/Wanderer are even worse.
…your list of # points I just do not even know how to reply to, its circular logic completely skating around all the discussion we have had. Some of which are blatantly incorrect like saying rebuke kills 4/5s.
I think I am done here. You are just attacking people and are not open to discussion at all.
I apologize if I insulted you in any way.
I’m sure you have a reason to believe in your arguments but personally I fail to see the logic.
All in all, if it was up to me I’d rework magmar entirely, get rid of all forms of ramp, all forms of infinite value generation, all end game win cons, all forms of aggro, all swarm and wall based strategies, all trials, ranged and burn and introduce more mind games in the mix, with sentinels and the like.
But if we’re willing to accept Magmar, Fault is entirely justifiable on that basis.
You know, I have a distaste for most things Songhai. What did I do about it? I played some Songhai. 
While this seems hypocritical, I played Songhai to get a more educated opinion on the faction. I now know it inside and out and have a better idea on how to handle it.
Perhaps playing some more Magmar would be a good idea for you then. When you play enough games with a faction, you’ll start to see its weak points more clearly. You may see your opponents find weak points to exploit.
or get a 100% winrate and confirm your beliefs on Magmar’s OP-ness
You’re right and I did exactly that. It only confirms my suspicions. Stomp or get stomped based on predecided values before the match even begins.
Oh they are playing swarm or Vanar? I guess they get stomped. I’m up against Artifact Shidai? I guess I get stomped.
Magmar just has ridiculously polirized match ups. In fact the reason Rag is probably the most popular is because he’s the most consistent not necessarily the most OP (though he also happens to be objectively more powerful)
It turns out relying on your BBS and hitting the opponent in the face with celerity minions they can’t run from is very consistent.
All I’m trying to say is that it’s not fun going into a game knowing you’re going to lose and Magmar is the single biggest offender of that.
I must say this is a long read but I’ve learned a few things.
I would’ve add points of my own but the points has already laid down.
I’m however new to vet, and I see the difference in fire power between normal very decks and meta vet decks.
I hate it because I need to tech lightbender/ be prepared for back to back emp/ and finish fast so kawill not eat me.
As a vanar player problems are late to the party since wisp + ego deal with vet pretty well and set up the finish. I do however see the struggle of other faction trying to maintain board against limitless minion generator. Limitless is never good.
I agree either ka or fault gotta go, and ra, ra should go as well.
It remind me the slo bomb when slo’s cost 0 Mana.
The last debate thread has to have been months ago. I think we just craved excitement!
Just to chime in a little, Fault-Kha might actually make Magmar stronger by countering general attack boosting. However, general attack boosting essentially halves the effectiveness of Ripper combos. Since no one plays attack boosts in fear of Kha, egg combo looses one of its main counters.
Egg Magmar is still quite disgusting by itself though.