So, do we really need walls to be destroyed by dispel?

[melkorita]

I am recently trying to figure out how to build a nice wall deck (yeah, starting from deathsadvocate list, but with a twist), but every time i start to elaborate the deck i’m like “well afaik it’s not very much meta, but an EMP would just destroy the deck”.

And that lead me to think… Why do walls disappear with dispel? They already have poorish bodies and lose a lot by being dispelled, also they cannot move which is ofc a big malus… So do we really need them to be destroyed by dispels?

What do you guys think?

[phoenixtoasches]

I would say mainly because they have no other counter save Plasma Storm which counters a lot in the first place especially swarm. The other point I have is to try and compare walls to buildings. They both have not great stats and if you wait long enough, you can get some value out of both these things. But the difference between walls and build minions is that dispel only hurts one. As a result, you get OP decks like buildmar to which the only hard counters are playing fast decks or playing control Magmar with Plasma Storm.

Whether buildmar is OP is another debate, but I think we can all at least agree that it is very strong.

[halcyon98]

I would say yes. Even if EMP do counters walls, it did recently get a nerf and isn’t as popular as it used to be. I would even go as far to say dispel is a poor way to deal with walls, because not many dispel options are AoE.

[alplod]

Out of 4 remotely playable Neutral Dispel options (Shroud, Bender, Ironclad, EMP) 3 are AoE. I don’t count Tethermaster cause nobody plays it.

Not that I think walls should not be dispellable though. They’re always a swarm of cheap minions with powerful or annoying effects. They need this disadvantage to be balanced.

[halcyon98]

It’s still just 3 cards, even if it’s 75%. The percentage poses little significance. (And nobody plays Ironclad.)

[phoinexflame]

Yes, we do need walls to be destroyed by dispel. Ice Age and Luminous charge are balanced only because they are destroyed by dispel.

There is another reason walls should be destroyed by dispel. Unlike Structures, Wall is a keyword which means that if they would not disappear when they get dispelled they would be able to move, which is not something walls should do in normal circumstances (I.E. without Winter’s Wake).

[deathsadvocate]

Walls as they stand would be completely out of hand if they could not be dispelled, even with the Existence of EMP they push the letter of what is ok for power.

They would have to be reworked a bit if they could not be dispelled. While counter or lose often does not feel good, I think there is enough counterplay plus the need for clever positioning on the wall players part to make them alright, and they are allowed to be as powerful as they are due to dispel.

There have been times where I have had to complain about their power and that was back when EMP was run in almost every deck, but with some of the other recent powercreep in the game plus the inherit counter-play they have I think they are one of the healthier better designed archetypes at the moment.

In the past I would have pushed for toning them down a bit and making them less counter or lose, but they need their raw power to keep up with things like wanderer, fault, and the like.

I am curious about what your building :D, I always like getting input/seeing what people would change in my stuff.

[ThraxArchon]

Think of it this way. Walls are created by a SPELL that has as effect to create walls let’s say out of thin air. Imagine that the air molecules in a tile are frozen and form a “structure” (not like an obelisk). So dispelling a wall is considered “right” in science, magic, my opinion and gameplay.

NOW, if you ask if that is right and fair you will get both yes and no for answers so in my opinion let’s go for the above.

[melkorita]

mmm no i’m not sold sorry :S (“lorewise”)

Talking about gameplay I’m still not convinced they would be OP if the body lasted through a dispel (with luminous charge you have 5 0/1 bodies that cant move for 5 mana, with, say, kron you still have a 4/5 body…), idk maybe I should just play them a bit more

@deathsadvocate I started from one of the deck you subimetted on the july top 50 and tried to make it more centered on board presence and less on walls (BIG DISCLAIMER - I still have to test it since i dont even have the cards, but i thought about it while i was on vacation and hope to get it built during august, even though with kids, wife and such it will be hard to find time :P)

Anyway, the list should look something like this

The idea is to ramp/stall on the first turns and then try to get back the board control you gave up on the beginning with value minions like kron, cloudcaller and pandora and finish with embla + either winter wake or memeton if they clear your walls (if you manage to play pandora the turn before embla you should trigger the meme destiny quite easily).

I’m torn between circulus and spelljammer for card draw, the first could help with destiny and provides token (hopefully buffed) if you topdeck on lategame but it doesnt help contesting the board and dies to ping…

I removed the aspect of the bear since i think you use it often on luminous charge, which i removed, and opted for the good old nerfed chromatic cold, which still should help with lots of threats (btw I was an S rank player more than I year ago and returned on the end of july so i still have to catch on the meta, but afaik everyone and their mother plays ragnora, so that should help with eggs).

I was even thinking about mark of solitude instead of cryogenesis cause on paper it seem quite strong cast on shivers but it would create card disvantage while cryo give you advantage, and on critical turns on mana curve…

I removed the malicious wisps cause they dont seem a ramp tool to me, they are probably very strong used on curve cause it will force your opponent to focus it asap and they would lose a mana when it matters more, but then you should just babysit it and cant use it to contest the board…I dont like it, at least on paper.

It’s probably nowhere near to your list in terms of competitivity (especially on the number of wincon) but it seem a fun idea to me.

Let me know what are your thoughts if you have time for it

[deathsadvocate]

You have taken a pretty drastic turn from how I run things, nothing wrong with the old school big bodies that make more bodies and thus are good with Kara approach. But I do have a few major points of contention:

Your short on two drops and have a crazy high curve so I see no need for Jammer at all, espeacily since your trying to cram Memetown in to.

Hate Wisp is likely the best card in Vanar and even more important with so much high cost stuff.

Luminous is the best card for Kara period, and is arguably more important then Wake for a wall deck.

Other then those your direction could be fun and I hope it works out for you.

[melkorita]

Well yeah, as i said i started from your list and tried to elaborate something different

Thanks for the insta feedback, i’ll let you know if i have some success with the deck

[snowshot]

I have a few takes on your deck since i’m maining vanar and actually got a few helpful pointers.

First - drop spelljammer, it is too risky, sujoner (spelling mistake) is better, spelljammer is good for aggro deck, yours is not and you don’t want to give your opponent cards.

Second - drop shivers, you have enough ramp, chasers can be good, they work well with everything and provide abit of draw.

Third - no pandora when you can run ice age, place 2 ice age one ancient grove.

Forth - why one copy of grove - because assuming that you made it and completed the trail grove is the last nail on the coffin.

Fifth - chromatic cold is a bad card - place bera or revager.

Sixth - cryo doesn’t help you draw things that are useful at that stage, place luminous charge instead.

You can also cut a single card for endless hunt for more trail and draw.

But i’ll let you know that wall lists usually focus on walls first and trail as a secondary wincon.

[melkorita]

Hey there, thanks for the input!

Btw my idea started from seeing DA list, and i was like “so, he runs a lot of ramp cards. Can i possibly change some cards to put some more fat minions in?”. The second thought was, with embla you most likely get 4 tokens, since i already have the memetown card, can i give it a shot and see if it playable?

On spelljammer it probably is a bad idea, but i dunno why i always have card draw anxiety on any deck i run, and dont like sojourner with that silly 1 attack, maybe it’s just better to replace it with something else (i thought circulus but no one seem to like it).

I thought about chasers but i wanted to keep the high ramp, also i’m not totally sold on that card. While i think is amazing as opener with gravity well, it most likely wont provide board control but just harrass the general.

On pandora, as i said i still have to test the deck (which will be a bit clunky most likely) but it looked like a perfect play the turn before embla. Having to wait for embla, then memeton then ice age then grove and then the spawns from the grove seem even slower than i think it is right now (ideally i thought the wincon can be a meme the turn after embla if the general is still inside the wall circle or winter wake if he escaped but walls are still alive, with the buffed kron/pandora/gravity well token as lategame plan b)

On chromatic cold, i thought a bit between it and the 2 aspect, and as removal tool it seemed more reliable since i dont need a board to remove the threat with CC, i will probably end up switxhing with ravager though.

Annnd lastly on cryo, since i have a gap between the early harmless minion and the fatties, it seemed to fit perfectly for the damage done, i think i should be able to clear lots of 4 or 5 mana minions with it. I probably wont need shivers by then but it still create card advantage since i can replace it (and i guess it’s the reason DA used it on his list).

So, thanks again for the input and please share your thoghts again if you feel like it, they are veey much appreciated!

[ThraxArchon]

Don’t get off topic, at least not too much. I wont talk about the deck.

As for the walls matter, the walls are not Structures that will generate a minion, Obelisk, nor a Structure that will have an effect, Gate to the Undervault. Walls are meant to be used mainly to control the board, that is why they are dispelled.

[snowshot]

I see your way of thinking and it seems legit.
At the end of the day you run what feels good to you and for your skill cap.

Try your deck, start changing what you think needs a change, as you get use to the touch and synergies you’ll maybe run these ideas (as they’re a well known vanar line of thinking regarding synergy and gameplan) and maybe not.

Just have fun:)

[deathsadvocate]

The spirit of your deck seems to be about ramp and token producing fatties, which frankly I think is pretty cool. Normally I tend to go for either dedicated walls and skip Oak, or dedicated cheap token spam for Oak and skip Wake. I still think skipping wake is likely the way to go here as you can pull off Oak fairly reliably, and even when you cant you can just keep dropping fatties until you win.

Ive put a little work into the deck trying to keep the spirit of your deck in mind instead of going one of the more standard directions, here is what I have so far:

http://www.bagoum.com/deckbuilder#MTo1MjcsMzoyMDMyNCwzOjU0MCwzOjUwNiwzOjIwMTQ3LDM6NTQ1LDI6NTQ4LDM6MjAxNjUsMzo1NjEsMzoxMTA2NCwzOjIwMjc2LDM6MjAxNDYsMTo1NjQsMzoxMDk2NiwzOjUzOA==

Keeps that maximum ramp to start dropping your fatties, but makes sure to also include kara staples. I still love my cryo/shiver package as much as people love to hate on them. Aside from that we have a few other token makers like circulus who also helps cover cardavantage, aspects, and Drake Dowager who is weirdly good for this deck due to sentinels being tokens themselves and the fact that people frantically attack things when they notice your trial. Remember aspects are amazing on walls, on wisp, are removal in a pinch, and also are tokens!

[melkorita]

@deathsadvocate @snowshot thank you both again! Will let you know how it goes!