This is a crazy tool, never took it away from my lists but the card is on the verge but still not op.
Slight balance suggestion
1 Like
Tbf arc vanar was still difficult to play in AB, despite it being an unhealthy tier 0.
@epicflygon malicious wisp, in my opinion, eclipses desolator in terms of power and thoroughly limits design space. At its floor, a protect wisped stalls for a turn in all mus bar ragnora and reva. At its ceiling, it runs away with the game in a manner which is particularly unhealthy. Desolator is not fast enough to stall out a fast aggro deck, and many decks prey on the tempo loss a deso play brings.
Many soviet vanar decks currently being tested. Will post on them within a month or two. Current research suggests tempo faie, arc kara, and ramp ilena to be front runners as strong tier 2 decks. Consider testing wild tahr with gravity well. Huge fan of that core atm
3 Likes
I agree, I have yet to see a T0 deck that is easy to play.
P-much my point (even if I showed it poorly) is that the deck was so OP that someone with a basic understanding of how to play this deck can do well against non-Vaath and Mirror Match matches.
1 Like
Protected wisp should be rewarded - and if a player managed to protect wisp for more then 2 turns it is the opponent’s mistake.
Edit - even more now after the vanar nerfs
Besides - you need to consider kit: abyss got more then enough pings, heals, and cheap sacrifice spells to proc using desolator - it is tempo loss just like wisp but without the care.
Their roles are diffrent - deso. Want to sustain and be a good target for pings and spells while wisp want to stay on board and with 3 hp it shouldn’t.
I know everyone today forgat about running removal but here is a wisp to remind you that you lose if you play as a race.
Agree with the first part of your deso analysis, and am therefore confused with the incongruence of your conclusion. How do all those pings and procs not constitute care? Consider cass for example. She plays deso and pings it. She effectively paid 5 mana for an empty board and 4 point health swing.
Contrast with wisp, where backline wisp p2 shuts down vetruvian and non rag/reva/ziran game play without any counter play for at least a turn. Also, the whole idea that playing a minion backline and forcing removal to be a healthy direction for this game is laughable, doubly so when a good fraction of the removal cannot even deal with it. In fact, this red queen between minion and removal is one of the greatest factors as to why we live in the meta we do, all based off the false premise that toxic minions are justified by strong removal and vice-versa.
Mark my words, vanar cannot get strong minions of its own whilst remaining healthy so long as wisp remains unchanged.
1 Like
Cass doesn’t only ping through bbs, she pings through spells too.
Wisp is a strong card but it is not strong as you make it to be, can it get reworked? Well yes, there are nicer ways to go about things.
I feel like wisp should get a rework just like wanderer and from the same reason - interactiveness, i want people to actually enjoy playing as and against decks when you know that you are on a plain field.
I would add a section of positioning to wisp in order to get the same effect - that way you give it a nice challenge.
Regarding removal - decks shouldn’t be swiming in removal but 3 hp is never that hard to blow up by early game spell.
Strong minions? Strong in what sense? I do feel like vanar can get strong minions regardless wisp (maybe not?), it is not the minions that are strong in vanar it is mostly the setting to blow up.
Ice age is very strong (op) but it can get answered, didn’t? Then you win.
Ygddra is strong “3” drop that should get answered, given the right positioning if not answered you risk 12 dmg.
You can give vanar strong bits of puzzles and triggers for synergy as long they got their own limitation (as you should).
1 Like
Wisp
Tempo Loss
Don’t know about you but diagonal behind you or frontline Wisp has a serious tempo gain to it, you aren’t put ahead but you can screw with your opponent.
Wisp is really versatile depending on how you play it.
You can use it as ramp if you play it in the back of you have a really good turn planned out next, and need the mana to do it, or you can pop him in front and have a solid 4/3 that disrupts your opponent’s next turn. That gets you essentially at worst a 3 mana 4/3, split over both player’s mana, which is not horrible.
Generally, though, Vanar is not a any position to Abuse Wisp.
The only thing Celerity on Ka would do would be to let it move extra spaces, if you dont like Celerity then replace that text with can move 2 extra spaces. Please tell me how it would possibly do extra damage unless it is attacking something like an oblysk or building; even then if would be 2 extra damage at the very end as Ka would survive. Perhaps Ka should be given 1 extra life so it would realistically die to anything that would wipe out a dervish anyways as opposed to everything.
Summoning Rippers as a creature is insane. 1 mana 3/1 rush and rebirth that can be continually spammed. You think my proposal to Ka would be OP but spammable 3/1 with Rush and Rebirth for 1 mana is fine? Vetruvian once had BBS that mad 2/2 Rush wind dervishes and that was OP as hell, a 3/1 with Rebirth that sticks would be immeasurably better than that.
I’ll give you the Desolator one, but Vet is only at the top because of Ka Fault, no other Vet deck comes close to the combo.
Dont worry about form.
Now even if Kha had four health it could attack a general twice doubling down on its damage before reviving and doing it again! That could literally double its damage in its current state. Khas ability to suicide into generals repeatedly MUST be addressed. Going after the field is one thing, but the ability to auto win with insane nigh uncounterable burst is absolutly not ok, and it gets even more ironic as this is why rippers are problematic right now. My changes adress both of these.
Rush is balanced around the fact that you can play around it due to its limited mobility. Rush should not be combined with things that increase mobility/ignore the board.
Rippers DO NOT have rush, that’s just how eggs work, when an egg hatches the minion comes out activated. Rippers summoned as a minion would not be active, and on top of that my suggestion was to remove the ability to hatch them via other cards effectively giving them rush/celerity which as I keep trying to point out is problematic. Those were the problems, same as kha.
The issue with rippers is exactly the issue you are proposing to give to kha with rush/celerity, or currently with rush/flying, and its wayyy stronger in vet because they have tons of ways to develop dervishes, they dont even need to go egg, hatch, buff. They just need to play there normal game, then play kha and win.
You are absolutely right rippers with rush would be as dumb as Kha. I am trying to address both of these issues.
I believe you misunderstood what I was intending to do or was I unclear. The suggestions to Ka in my reply were stacked upon what I had suggested in the post. To summarize I suggested we make Ka a 5 mana 2/2 with Rush and can move 2 additional spaces. If you detest the idea of mobility and rush, then have Ka’s OG be all dervishs flying. This makes it so all iron dervishs summoned gain nothing particular while wind dervishes benefit from the flying buff only.
I was wrong with the Rippers, I assumed that the Rippers would be summoned and ready to attack. There is however a problem summoning Rippers as creatures, it makes them even harder to kill, and gives them too much sticking potential. Now instead of killing an egg, you would need to kill the Ripper and the egg in the same turn.
The problem of a “rushing” 3/1 is still present as killing an egg and a ripper requires 2 sources of damage to deal with for only 1 mana. Correct me if I’m wrong but there is nothing in the entire game that does 2 instances of damage for 1 mana. This buff of making Rippers as creatures would put players in a massive tempo loss as they have to use 2 mana minumun to counter a 1 mana play.
1 Like
I would be fine with Kha giving dervishes flying util the end of turn instead of its revive ability. Still a lot of burst potential but at least board wipes work now. May still be to much, but its a lot better.
Rippers are strong and I would prefer to keep their highrisk/reward aspect, thus why my suggestion was removing magmars ability to hatch them. Also Cassyva’s BBs perfectly counters rebirth minions by doing a point of damage and then creating a creep under them that deals damage at the end of the turn. There are also a massive host of ways to just play more then one ping a round and or ping then punch the egg, not to mention dispel/transforms also take care of rebirth. There are actually a ton of ways to make rebirth completely irrelevant, its not that strong of a keyword. On top of a 3/1 without celerity just not being that threatening.
1 Like
Removing the ability to hatch an egg instantly makes it so eggs always die in one hit and in my opinion removes a lot of potential, just like how there are cards that speed up a Build process. A better treatment would be to allow for instant hatching but it exhausts the minion.
1 Like
I do actually like that, its quite elegant, although probably not strong enough with the current options, they would likely need some small buffs. Which is why I took the opposite route of basically instead of hatching turning eggs into buildings with build 1.
There’s loads of ideas popping about for how to fix Eggs/Ragnora, and a lot of them would probably work out okay.
I do like the idea for exhausting force-hatched eggs, I always thought the pseudo-rush is kinda dumb, and it makes rippers a real terror. It even makes thematic sense that they’d be unable to act right away since you woke them up way too early you know? Then you could buff Inceptor’s stats or something and un-nerf Morin-Khur (Egg Morph is probably fine though?).
I don’t know how you’d write that rules text on the card, but whatever.
It still leaves Ripper combos, which is quite scary, but at least it’s not all out of hand, and the opponent can answer or position away.
2 Likes
This topic was automatically closed 5 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.