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Saving Sabotage

Saving Sabotage

I crafted 3 Paradigms, and have been playing Control Ciphyron ever since. Well, it is weak. I’d even argue this is the weakest deck I have ever played. It’s a lot of fun, but it simply doesn’t have an upper edge over any decks in the meta today. This post is my personal thoughts and suggestions to save the archetype. I’m no expert on this subject or whatsoever, but I believe I may have some valid ideas.


Why is Sabotage so weak?

After testing out a Control Ciphyron deck, I was able to narrow down 5 main issues with the deck: lack of direction, limited card pool, no consistent win-con, inability to deal with big threats, and conflicting design ideas in a single archetype.

Lack of direction

I think this is the most critical issue with the deck. Stealing enemy minions is nothing more than an idea, a thematic concept. There are no synergies or whatsoever related to stealing enemy minions. You may argue that stealing enemy minions creates value on its own, but that simply isn’t enough. For example, Healyonar wouldn’t be a deck without healing synergies, even though healing itself is an immediate benefit. The archetype needs cards that can create direct value out of stolen enemy minions.

Limited card pool

A no-brainer here. Ciphyron, out of all Generals in Duelyst, was given the least amount of support cards. There’s Blindscorch, Conduit, Dominate Will, and Paradigm. That’s really it. 4 cards! How pathetic is that? At this point, I’m doubting whether or not was Ciphyron was even designed to be a Control General. Maybe he was supposed to be something else altogether.

No consistent win-con

Not only does the deck have no synergies or support cards, it doesn’t have a win-con either. The inherent issue with stealing enemy minions is that it widely relies on the opponent. If the opponent doesn’t summon minions worth summoning, you can’t use it proactively. You can use it defensively, as it’s essentially sabotaging enemy plays, but that alone is definitely not a win-con. But on top of that, that minion needs to be weakened before it is stolen; that is why cards like Conduit feel so underwhelming. That is why the deck has to turn to options other than Control cards for win-cons, and that only makes the deck cluttered and janky.

Inability to deal with threats

Ciphyron can’t steal big minions! The -2 Attack is a measly number for most minions that cost 6 or more. Sure, there’s Blindscorch, but to think that a combo of a spell and a 6 mana minion is the only way to steal big minions is pretty sad. Other Vetruvian Generals can deal with threats just fine, where Zirix has Kha, and Sajj has her BBS and Iris Barrier. Sure, there is always BoA, but it alone just isn’t enough for the deck survive late-game.

Design inconsistencies

This is just a small issue, but it’s noticeable. Some Control-related cards have blatant anti-synergy with each other. Blindscorch reduces a minion’s Attack to 0, but Psychic Conduit only takes control of an enemy minion that turn. So if you Blindscorch a minion and then steal it with Conduit, it won’t be able to attack that turn and will return to the enemy General when your turn is over.


So what now?

Not that we have recognizes some crucial, albeit obvious, issues with the deck, lets; try fixing it. I will propose two main solutions to save the archetype: buffing existing cards and printing support. If these proposals do indeed take place, Ciphyron would best be elevated to at least Tier 1.5 status, or maybe even Tier 1.


Balance Changes

These are desirable changes to Control-related cards that would make them stronger and easier to play. It will also address the design inconsistency with Blindscorch and Psychic Conduit I mentioned above.

1. Blindscorch

Blindscorch-1 download Blindscorch
Vetruvian has decent basic cards in General, but this one sticks out like a sore thumb. It’s obviously a combo enabler, but it’s really not worth it because it’s only useful with Paradigm, and even that is a whopping 7 mana combo. I lowered its mana cost to 0 but nerfed its effect to only reduce the Attack to 2. But in reality, it’s really not a nerf, because now we can finally use the card with Conduit.

2. Psychic Conduit

PsychicConduit download Conduit
I’m really not sure about this one. It’s a big buff, that’s for sure, but it could also be too much. My main problem with Conduit was that it’s far too situational with a mediocre payoff, as the minion that it steals has 2 or less Attack anyways. Best case scenario, it kills off two Wraithlings but that’s mostly it. Either way, the card needs to be buffed one way or another; I’m just unsure how.

3. Grapnel Paradigm

GrapnelParadigm download Paradigm
Kind of the elephant in the room? I initially thought the card would be pretty powerful, but it actually just sucks ass. My first idea to buff the card was to make it take control of all nearby enemy minions with 2 or less Attack, but I thought that would take away from the flavor. I settled on this change after I played a match and the enemy had a Sojourner and 2 Wrathlings aligned in a single column, and realized how much flexible the card could get if it could choose either the row or column to take control of minions.


Support Cards

If I were to print some support for this archetype, these cards would probably be a pretty good representation. I made sure they are pretty powerful, so they may have the issue of having use in decks outside of Ciphyron, but I doubt it.

1. Apostasia


Vetruvian isn’t particularly lacking in strong 2 drop options, but this one is just for Ciphyron. It can burn and sustain at the same time, with a decent statline and a Desolater-esque swing. It’s an awkward opening play, but players can easily follow up with a Conduit next turn.

2. Paradox

Paradox
Its effect itself may be weaker than Apostasia’s at face value, it will solve the fundamental problem that the cards stolen by Ciphyron are generally weak. I didn’t make Paradox buff the Health though, as in some cases like Conduit, the enemy minion needs to be given back. Buffing its Health would just make it harder for it to kill itself.

3. Planar Ascendant

Planar
Slow but effective. Its effect is weaker than Mindlathe, but it is also decently statted and has synergetic potential with cards like Kinematic Projection and Astral Phasing. It would most likely just get removed as soon as it hits the board, but if it sticks, the opponent will pay.

4. Epoch Diaspora

Epoch
This is obviously Paradigm support, but the opponent would probably just play around it by not aligning their minions. It’s a strong effect nonetheless, and it might even have use outside of Control decks. But many Vetruvian decks are Aggro-based anyways, so I don’t think it would be a serious problem.

5. Eschatology


A pretty solid win-con. Best case scenario, it will probably only deal about 5 or 6 damage, but combine that with a huge body and that’s some real value. This card also combos well with Conduit, as Conduit alone can create 2 stacks.

6. Esoteric Intervention


Most likely, it would be best to use this card after summoning Paradigm. It may seem underwhelming at a first glance, but just drawing two or so cards with this is a still huge win. Sure, it’s extremely conditional, but it’s also very low-risk as it costs 0 mana.

7. Cerebral Shift


Pretty straightforward Paradigm support. It’s essentially a better version of Ciphyron’s BBS, and it should be very useful when you want to fish for more than one minion with Paradigm at once. It can also be used with earlier in the game with cards like Thunderhorn and LitD.

8. Mastermind’s Thesis


This one is purely for shits and giggles. It’ll either be extremely overpowered or a stupid meme; I still don’t know. But it is win-con nevertheless, and it will actually give Dominate Will a decent reason for existence.


That’s a Warp

I suppose that’s it for now. I highly doubt CPG will ever come across this post, but I hope they realize Sabotage needs some serious helping out. Thank you for reading so far, and feel free let me know your thoughts on this. I honestly think some cards I suggested could be overpowered, but I guess that’s kind of the point.


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You forgot this crucial change to one of his should-be stapples:

That is, simply make so he doesn’t raise the attack of minions he nullified their damage.

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It seems I have completely forgotten the existence of Hexblade. :thonk:

Ciph is pretty fine right now TBH, not too OPed but not weak at all. I’ve had good success with him in S last season and seen others doing well with him there too.

If any Vet general needs support it is Sajj, but that is a story for a different day.

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Well, sure, but it’s probably not because sabotage cards are strong.

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Right, but thats a completely different discussion. That is “Sabotage suite of cards could use some buffs” not “Ciph is weak” there is absolutely a difference.

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I see what you mean. I made changes to the wording here and there.

Thing is, does Mr Big Cippy really needs to be “Lord Dedicated Saboteur”? I see his body doubling as a powerful “Defensive Sajj”, focused on not taking damage while she’s focused in eliminating threats. Tweaking things to improve thefty shenanigans might be nice, but he seems me much more about being unbending (thus why others bend to him) than being crafty.

You’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this post, and I appreciate that as I do agree Ciph isn’t all he could be, and Zirix is still basically Vetruvian’s undisputed #1. So it’s interesting to think about why, and what could change. Though as others have said, he’s ‘fine’, and does have decks where he’s the best fit.

At any rate, there’s a lot I could pick out from your post to talk about (like not having answers to big minions? Swirler and BoA not enough for you??), but I’ll put some of that aside because there’s one particular thing I want to talk about. Also, fair warning, I’ve barely played Ciph, so my views come more from playing against him.

From my perspective I was quite disappointed with what Mythron gave Ciph for support; Synaptic Arbitrage hasn’t seemed to see any play, but my criticism of it, and a lot of the content of your post, is actually something different; that it’s all just ‘steal steal steal’. Okay, stealing away weak enemies is a cool enough thing, in small doses, but I already hate playing against Vetruvian’s removal as is, I switched to playing mantra for a big part of the lost in the desert era because every minion I played got removed anyway, might as well not play any.

I’m CERTAIN that there’s interesting design space elsewhere related to lowering attacks. I’d Let Ciph target friendlies first of all, this is super niche currently, but could easily open up some interesting designs. And it’s just basically no reason not to. Friendly minions with abilities that trigger whenever their attack becomes 0 could be a possible way to use this. But even if you wanted to keep it to just targeting enemies, I can easily imagine minions that passively sand trap anything with 0 HP, or that heal or grow whenever something loses attack, Beastclad Hunter would actually be an interesting fit for Ciph, that sort of thing.

Just, not everything be sabotage please.

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No, but I want him to be. Sabotage is such a cool concept.

Well, of course. I’d be perfectly happy if just one or two of my suggestions came true; it’s obviously unrealistic to expect all of them to happen.

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Very interesting topic and nice work there, I totally support the idea of giving the general more synergic tools.
I really like the fantasizing part of the thread, not just because I do see a problem and wish for it to be somehow solved, but also i like to believe that a 1% of all this might actually be considered by the devs, at some point, in a far away future…
Just ““a few”” words on some things I wanted to address particularly:

-Inability to deal with threats: totally agree. I think that there should be some kind of playable spell/minion (cost-effect wise, so not looking at you Dominate Will :wink: ) that could punish slamming big threats on the board with huge attack stats.

-Design inconsistencies: yep, very true. Also I’d point out Blind Scorch/BBS and than attack with Hex Blade taking 1 damage. What if you really just want to kill a minion and not take damage at all :smiley: ?

RE-works

-Blind Scorch: very good idea. This would make the card more playable at 6 mana with Grapnel, and or function just to sabotage an enemy minion. Plus the combo with Equality Constraint is so damn unpractical that this card, which could see more use, is pretty unplayable.

-Psychic Conduit: I made the same kind of re-wording in a thread few days ago, but was really just re-wording because the minion is effectively reactivated anyway (at least once I used it as p2t1 against a Scroll Bandit, that’s how I remember). Too bad it doesn’t work against battle pets, that’s why the re-wording is necessary, so to include them among the potential victims of the spell.

-Grapnel Paradigm, aka to me as “The Hooker”: the Ciphyron staple, the minion which presence is justified (or justifies?) by the use of Ciphy as general.
Your idea is interesting, thematically would make sense and it resembles an attack with blast, which works EITHER vertically or horizontally. Not sure how the commanding/pointing at the targets would have to be executed though, in a situation where you can get stuff vertically and horizontally. Maybe it’s not a big deal though, anyway cool concept!

The new support:

-Apostasia: a little op. I’d keep either burn or heal and make it cost 3.

-Paradox: I’d change “it’s control changes” with “until the end of turn”.

-Planar Ascendant: I’d go funkier here-> Whenever this minion attacks OR COUNTERATTACKS, reactivate and take control of that enemy minion this turn.
Just imagine the awkwardness of a minion that in your own turn becomes an enemy triggering some weird synergies, becoming an obstacle for other minions or the general. I think would be fun :stuck_out_tongue: .

-Epoch Diaspora: yes, pseudo-aoe effect stuff! Maybe, just maybe, too cheap, perhaps 6 mana but 4/4 or 4/5 body is better. Or maybe making it a spell for 5 mana :thinking: .

-Eschatology: I’d go for 2 damage, like some kind of Vetruvian Mantra card.
It’s a finisher, cannot be cheaper since it’s a minion, and at 7 mana seems fair.

-Esoteric intervention: a bit too elaborate, but I like the idea of draw in synergy with the control. Maybe should be a 2/3 mana card that could say “Draw a card for each minion you took control of until the casting of this spell”.

-Cerebral Shift: this would be like the Entropic Gaze for Starhorny. Nice!

-Mastermind’s Thesis: the Variax-like flavour is super duper cool but I would make just slightly more playable by adding “Draw a card” in the end.
Or this could be some kind of " Vetruvian Finality" with “The attack of ALL the enemy minions until your next turn is 2. Generals cannot receive damage until your next turn. Your Bloodbound Spell is Dominate Will and now costs 3. Draw 3 cards”.

On a side note, I’d like the possibility to make a viable, proper archetype with Ciphyron as the Vet wizard general, more relying on spells’ effects or synergies with few minions (maybe newely acquired with the spells :wink: ) and maybe some artifacts.

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How about this:

Landing on a minion kills it, so this card at the worst is a 7 mana Dark Transformation. The stats might have to be weaker, with the steal potential it has.

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Thanks for the long reply! The change to Ascendant seems like a really interesting idea. As for Apostasia and Epoch, I agree; they should be nerfed.

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Nice idea. Not sure how it should be worded though. If I were to make a decision, I’d make the ability to land on an enemy minion a new keyword.

Well, my constant gripe with raw sabotage also spreads from Abyssian, tho. Theft without purpose other than theft tends to be trolly if made powerful by and on itself and there’s a reason why in MTG if there’s anything more hated than Monoblue is WU (that Vetruvian fits to the letter). Designwise it ain’t a good idea to fully support sheer Perfect Magister mind control gameplay, it might be fun to play but it is potentially more toxic than plain removal if left to rampage.

Given my likings to how i see theft decks in Abyssian, before thinking purely in making theft decks better i’d like to discus… Why theft? What, besides taking monsters from your foe, are you doing it? One solution i see to this could be binding the theft playstyle a little closer to the other themes Vetruvian has, mostly so to give specific usage for stolen things. Stuff like “take control of a minion that costs 2 Mana or less. It is now also a Devirsh.” That thing i wrote on Hexblade naturally shifts him toward artifact builds, but still focused on theft if so you wish (pair it with Thunderclap or Spinecleaver). Perhaps more thematically cruel: the power to transform weakened foes into specialized, not necessarily Obelysk-based structures.

I’ll be giving it some thought throughout the day, but as much as usability is nice i feel Vet needs more reasons to take control than just taking more control.

2 Likes

Here, have the fruits of my day’s labor.

Processing Chamber

Grapnel - Zanes edition

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Grim Reminder

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Rasha's Slavedriver

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Corrupt the Royalty

Indenture in Stone

Sandshield Integration

2 Likes

More 5 mana removal bothers me. But I love your designs.

Does building “hatch” into a friendly minion?

Yep, the idea is a brainwashing machine, after all. Completely loyal. No previous attachments. No morals.

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I really wanna play Sandshield integration. It’s so meme…

EDIT. @zanestheargent, though I kinda agree on your opinion that “stealing” cards should be justified (for Abyss), the idea of taking control doesn’t need additional justification, it’s powerful itself. It is removal+board development thus very annoying. I assume you wasn’t present during Zen’Rui meta to understand how powerful AND annoying it is.

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Not there back then indeed, but i justified on the exact same thing in other words. I rather keep it down/limited but well rewarded in other fashions precisely to evade this.

1 Like