Duelyst Forums

On The Spot Talk - Merged Queues

\[T]/ It’s time for an on-the-spot-dev-talk-thingie about Dooly

Before we jump in, let’s make some clarifications about what this is and isn’t.

  • This isn’t a true Dev Talk, as typically we have a short stream/podcast where we can banter back and forth, and go off-topic when necessary
    • I may lightly touch on other subjects as necessary, but my primary focus is to give some clarity as to why we currently do not have a Casual Queue.
  • I’m only prepared to talk about the Merged Queues right now. I will not discuss other topics in this thread.
    • We won’t be going over topics such as the pros/cons of having Standard/Unlimited vs No Rotation
    • We won’t be going over any of the card changes introduced in 1.96
    • I will not be posting any actual numbers or statistics.
    • We will be talking about why Ranked and Casual became one queue

Cool? Cool. Let’s get this semi-casual semi-professional discussion going.


Patch Notes Section (for reference)

Let’s start by acknowledging that there are many buckets that we can categories our players in (Strict Ranked/Standard, Strict Casual/Unlimited, Pro-Standard, Pro-Unlimited, Pure-Casual, Casual-DeckTester, etc), each group with their own merits and needs. In an ideal situation, we would have four (or more!) queues mixing together standard/unlimited/ranked/casual.

It is important to note that we do not operate in an echo chamber; player feedback and actions are taken into account as we develop Duelyst. As mentioned in the patch notes, we had high hopes and strong intentions to keep Rotations so we were very surprised to see the stagnation of the Ranked/Standard queue so quickly after its implementation.

To provide some context, we have had Casual/Alternate ladders in Duelyst before (such as the most recent Frostfire queue). These modes tend to spike in interest over the first two weeks and interest decays rapidly afterwards. Our main ranked ladder queue receives its normal retention of players and queue times are largely unaffected.

This changed after Patch 1.95, where the only major difference in game queues was that the game now had an Unlimited and Standard format. While there may exist a myriad of variables and reasons as to why the Unlimited/Casual queue became dominant, the most important detail was that it was dominant despite what our data had previously shown about reoccurring trends with alternate queues (and population in this queue only grew over time!)


We also came across two peculiar items during this period.

  1. The queue time for Ranked/Standard grew significantly.
    (Common reports from players were in the form of complaints from waiting anywhere between 4 to 8 minutes for a match.)
  2. The rise in “Ranked Floor” players
    (People sitting at the 20, 10, 5 and 0 Ranks, with a rise in numbers of players who played no games after achieving those ranks)

There’s reason to believe that this meant that players were climbing up to the point they could earn Ranked rewards and begun playing Casual/Unlimited (if they played Ranked/Standard at all).

So why merge the queues?

There are three major points we wanted to address with the queue merge.

  1. Reward players for playing Duelyst
  2. Removal of prolonged queue times
  3. Improve matchmaking by matching players with their peers
  4. Allowing players to play what they want

How does merging the queues solve these goals?

For the first two:

  1. With no casual queue, everyone who plays on the ladder will be back in ranked and will receive the “End of Season” rewards.
    For die-hard casual queue players, this just means more rewards for doing exactly what you were doing before.
  2. Merging the queues means we don’t have a split playerbase and a self-feeding cycle of popularity.
    (Players upset with the long queue time in Ranked might jump to Casual which in turn makes Casual more popular and increases the delay in Ranked).
  3. With all players matched by “Rank” again, players interested in facing like-minded opponents can soar through the ranks, while those in it for the fun of Duelyst will naturally climb to meet similarly skilled opponents. Otherwise “Ranks” never mattered to that individual and they’re just in it for the games.

For the fourth point, we should first acknowledge the drawbacks to this system before we can address the solution.

Merging queues does inconvenience three major groups of play patterns.

  1. Those who utilize Casual to test decks for Standard
  2. Those who felt uncomfortable completing their quests in Standard and wished to do so in Casual
  3. Those who wanted to continue to play Duelyst carefree without affecting their Rank

The ‘solution’ for merging queues and “allowing players to play what they want” does not comfortably provide for these play patterns, but does function in a similar fashion.

At this point, please excuse my bluntness and allow me to talk to you player-to-player.

Basically: you can still play the game casually.
You can still play the game with all the same cards you were playing before, you can ignore your rank and just play for fun, knowing the system will match you against similarly skilled players. You can still complete your quests just as you did with two queues.


At this point, there’s probably some more I can cover but we’ve got the majority out of the way. Feel free to ask any questions and I’ll try to answer them to the best of my ability; if a pertinent question should come up I’ll amend this top/first post to contain it.

16 Likes

can we just use the faeria system of ranked and unranked having the same queues, but we just choose before seeing our opponent whether we want to play a ranked or unranked match?

give me a good reason why that wouldn’t be helpful. I’ll wait

4 Likes

I love this change, please don’t revert it back.

you have made things that didn’t work in other CCG work in Duelyst (replace mechanic, Board, etc)
you can make this work too.

5 Likes

We’ve considered having a similar model before!

One of the issues we’ve already ran into with our community is the concept of “gate-keeping.”

Explanation of Gatekeeping

(For those unaware, Gate-Keeping is when a player purposely flunks matches to remain at a rank threshold [Such as Diamond Rank 1] in order to fight and beat out lesser players, preventing those players from progressing ranks)

While the majority of our playerbase are positive individuals with low signs of toxicity, we’d rather not give trolls the tools they need to agitate people’s ladder experience by preventing any harm to their current rank by “queuing casual.”


Alternative Community Suggestion - I remember someone in the patch notes mentioning a casual queue cutoff (something like giving the “switch” that Faeria has up until reaching Diamond, the point where we can safely say no one gets to by “casually playing” or memeing to).

This is something we have not considered before and is worth investigating.

9 Likes

While I disagree with the whole thing of “gatekeeping” being a problem, I believe that this:

is worth investigating, definitely. I feel that this would be a very workable solution.

I’d also like to mention I very much agree with this decision you made to “un-rotate” the game. Thanks.

10 Likes

can someone explain the faeria suggestion bit? I don’t really understand it very well.

1 Like

"The Ranked and Unranked constructed queues have been merged together to improve matchmaking quality.

When queuing in Battle mode, you will be presented with two options:

Casual (formerly Unranked)
Ranked
The functionality of each is very similar to before, with a few key differences.

The matchmaker will always take priority to match Casuals with Casuals, or Ranked with Ranked. However, in cases where that is not practically possible, Casuals may sometimes be matched against Ranked players.
When a Ranked player encounters a Casual player, their opponent will have a special Casual medal displayed as their rank.
Casual players can never be matched against God rank players
We’ve considered these significant changes from many different angles, and believe this is the best way forward that has the best interests of our players in mind. While we could have simply removed the Unranked option altogether and funnel all players into the same Ranked queue, we think it’s important for players to have the option to play without the inherent stresses involved with Ranked play. We also believe it’s important to preserve the ability for Ranked players to experiment with new decks in a Casual mode without being concerned with hurting their Ranking. With these changes, we believe we can accomplish those goals while also reducing the average amount of time a player must wait before beginning a game of Faeria."

God Rank is S rank essentially

TLDR: Ranked and Casual is one queue, but before you queue up you decide whether its a casual or a ranked match. If I picked casual and i meet a ranked opponent, I lose nothing if I win or lose, he loses a rank if he loses, he gains a rank if he wins.

8 Likes

Unfortunately, I still feel not represented (maybe I’m alone) :frowning:

I loved Unranked because it was really light on meta.
In Ranked, you play, you climb (more or less, but you will) and you end up facing the same 6 netdecks (exaggerating but you see my point).

Anyway, thanks for the explanation.

5 Likes

interesting idea, but I wouldn’t do that. You know what’s worse than gatekeeping? Pubstomping.
The way Duelyst is now, it’s almost impossible to stay in bronze if you’ve been playing for a while.

Say I just chose to play casual games and casual games alone: I’d have rank 30. I’d be matched with fellow bronzers over and over. Those basic deckers won’t even know what hit them. I could keep doing that over and over. If there was only ranked, like right now, i’d have to give away some free wins to pubstomp, and it would even out. But now I can just straight up slaughter them.

And what if there’s a good casual player who doesn’t go to the forums? It’d make him an accidental pubstomper.

It’s not worth it i tell ya.

Or maybe it’s worth it if you refine the faeria idea a bit more.
Enter Hidden MMR-Rank System (patent pending).
The basic idea is basically you have a hidden MMR that is designed to fit the duelyst ladder’s format.

In addition to the rank you see, we add a “hidden rank”, which gains and loses Chevrons when you play either ranked, or casual. So in the case of a pubstomper: he’d win a lot of matches, but after some time, his hidden MMR will reach high enough to mark him as “hidden mmr gold” or “hidden mmr diamond”, despite being apparently bronze in his real rank. This will cause him to be evenly matched with fellow “hidden mmr gold” or “hidden mmr diamond” players.

@nwardezir idk dude, I saw just as many netdecks in ranked and casual back then. the only difference was that I run into basic decks every 5 games in casual.

1 Like

You are not alone; while I play(ed) ranked, I also played unranked to have a break from encountering the same small number of decks again and again - so maybe count me as 1/2 member of your ‘population’ ? :wink:

AFAIK, ‘similarly skilled’ in Duelyst means “of similar rank / division”, right ? No, I’m not going to bring up Silver vs S-Rank here. But let’s keep that lurking in the back of the readers’ heads :wink:

IF rank / division really was a reflection of a player’s skill, that might work.
As is, however, rank/division is at least partially a reflection of player time or endurance; a lucky win streak can push a ‘bad’ player into the next division and since one can’t drop out of a division until reset, said player would consequently be matched against players of significant higher skill. **Except when playing against other ‘bad’ players that also ‘failed upwards’ through a win streak

Except that now even die-hard casual players are forced to play (against) the meta whereas before in unranked, they could evade the meta, at least somewhat.

As nwardezir said, this does ignore players who have fun playing (with and against) non-meta decks.

A wannabe gatekeeper already has the tools to do so; queuing unranked would make it a bit more convenient as it would remove the need to play a match and insta-concede to loose chevrons.
So… is this already happening ? **Honest question

Outside of bronze (where you cannot loose chevrons, i.e. a player will move out of currently, this is already possible. As for bronze + unranked - simply promote a bronze player to silver after a certain number of games – or just disable unranked for bronze.

I never encountered a basic deck in unranked and the ratio of meta / netdecks to – hmmm, let’s call them ‘alternative’ decks – was about 2.5 - 3 :1 (eyeballed, based upon my personal experience).
(Just for perspective, I played, on average, probably about 4-5 ranked and 4-8 unranked games per day.)

Edit:
Forgot to include it, but @ThanatosNoa, your effort in explaining and discussing this situation is much appreciated!

6 Likes

Well, what to say…As both pro-unranked and rank player thank you very much for your detailed explanation and for the attention on the matter, although I’m not fully satisfied by the decision nor the reasons for it but at least we all know better about the merging.
The idea about faeria that @galaxydueler proposed seem like an interesting alternative, and i look forward for a come back of some kind of unranked-casual game mode option.

5 Likes

Thanks for the address @ThanatosNoa, I’m sure some (if not most) of us appreciate the effort and explanation behind the killing of unlim and queue merger!

Hey look, @largebanana’s back

4 Likes

what’s up my man XD

3 Likes

Am I missing something? The OP says they “merged” the queue but I only see ranked… Where does one find this “casual” option? They didn’t merge anything… they killed a game mode.

IMO… Unranked should be default… Every match is casual. If you want competitive play, you buy a ticket and play a bracket. At the end of the “season” the standings for the brackets are tallied. This is a)more competitive and b)helps regulate in-game currency. It also means, all of these unofficial side tournaments will likely be easier to organize, since there is already a bracket mechanism in play.

Whatever the case, I don’t care about rotations. I do think it helps to keep the meta on it’s toes but when the devs are going to “turbo-balance” high play cards, wtf is the point of a rotation?

In the part where they mention “floor players”, that’s because people play ladder for free stuff. If you implement my suggestion there will be no such thing.

You aren’t allowing players to play what they want because we want to play casual.

We are not doing exactly what we were doing before as casual players. Now, we’re being thrown into a perpetual competitive scene that has absolutely no barrier to entry and is set up to foster toxic behavior.

Popularity of styles seems like something that should happen or not on it’s own. If more people were migrating to casual but the devs or whoever, decided to kill that one because the other mode became less popular then obviously the modes themselves are not the problem.

Testing decks absolutely is impacted by this. Just this season, I was rank 12 and had a solid run at gold. I decided… don’t ask me why, that now would be a great time to see how an egg-based Magmar deck would play. I lost a few entire ranks trying to test that deck. Now it’s marginally tuned but frankly I got tired of hitting optimized decks from people doing their end of season laddering and losing horribly. I did switch over to my tuned decks and pulled back some of that rank but the whole situation has me put off from the game entirely.

The system does NOT put you against similarly ranked opponents. At rank 13 I was getting paired with gold players. Explain to me how that is what you mean? It is definitely not based on your W/L record.

The removal of a casual mode was a disaster in my eyes. Again, if you’re going to have drafts, I think competitive play should be set up exactly the same way and the default mode should be non-ranked matches. I know people will disagree because at the moment there is no barrier to entry but that lack of entry is part of the problem. If last 2 got a free ticket, orb, and cosmetic, and second round got 1 orb, I think a lot of people would be happy with this change. You could also offer promos and rotate the orbs, throw in a crate, whatever… but the point is, an open pool with no barrier is easily soured.

1 Like

Thanks for taking the time to read that wall of text guys.

As I mentioned earlier

There’s not a single developer on the team who’s looking at our queues and saying “we only want one, ever” but we do have to heavily take into consideration things such as queue times and make adjustments to best fit a user’s experience.


Some Q&A

It’s true that the casual queue did allow for a lighter breath of freedom in deck “creativity” but that environment did not enforce the carefree nature at all; looking back at our first 4 weeks of feedback one of the top & most reoccurring complaints came from players matching up against higher division opponents playing S-Rank viable decks.

At this point the best I can say (as in, my views, not that of the other devs/company) is that we have to become the change we want to see. If we want to see more fun decks, play more fun decks and help mold the community into that mentality.

Note

That is not an easy thing to do, as the highest reward often sought is the “VICTORY” screen after a match, which breeds its own circles of degeneracy (ex: well if I lose to DDOS but DDOS makes me win, I’ll play DDOS which in turns makes other players play DDOS decks and then no one has fun on the ladder! -vs- I’ll have fun and play what I want, take my losses as they come and hopefully my opponents are of the same mentality).


This has been occurring since open beta. Thankfully this as ‘rotten’ as our community has gotten (which to be honest is a grand relief) but I’d like to avoid any more grief when and wherever possible. After all, we’re a tight knit community and really friendly towards each other, last thing I want is for people to start holding grudges.

8 Likes

Honestly, that is what I want most of all rather than unranked queues or daily challenges, but it seems like some people are just hell bent on attacking each other all over the forums. I don’t understand why people are so pissed off about this to the point where this has to be the first time I’ve seen the forums community be toxic (since August 2017).

Everything to be said on the community’s and individual’s part has been said, hopefully this post will be enough to get people over it and we can get back to Doom support and nerfs to Shadow Watcher.

5 Likes

I’m hitting S-Rank viable decks in Silver… do I get to complain about that? It’s the same thing as casual right???

The most toxic behavior is not what you listed. A few of us laid out examples of the types of things we’ve been encountering in the patch note thread. People spamming friend requests to throw salt, people roping, having someone bottle you and just sit on lethal or trail you out when you’re at 2 health and they have board control. Emoticon spam while they sit on their timer when they realize you’re about to win. There’s numerous things showing up lately that I didn’t see at all when I first started playing.

I know people are saying these forums are bad, and maybe there’s some snark and condescending attitudes (especially from gold and above talking to silver like we are inconsequential). All of that aside, there is a helpful and friendly element here. There seems to be almost no community policing on insults though and people become bolder and bolder with how far they go with their jabs.

Anyway, for everything you’ve said, the big takeaway I’m getting is:
“This is the change, either live with it or buh-bye”. It’s obvious that people who prefer casual are just flat out of luck… Just please… stop trying to convince us what we’re left with is the same thing. We’re not dumb… and it’s not the same.

This is an interesting perspective but not at all a viable one. Duelyst is a F2P game and in order to maintain that aspect of the game, players need some sort of “income” in order to sustain and grow their collections.

Having an entrance fee to gain rewards (akin to Gauntlet) puts up a pseudo paywall which can serve to dissuade players from trying the game altogether (if the only means to naturally grow your collection is to spend the same income you would use to acquire packs/orbs).

Gauntlet serves a niche function in that many community members can use their talents to reach high winrates to go “infinite” and accumulate rewards. We’re also too late into development for Duelyst to completely redo our Rank system in a blink of an eye for what is considered solid by the majority of players from across various CCGs (this isn’t a “Duelyst” exclusive method).

Keep in mind that the goal for this merged queue was to provide the most flexibility possible for our current playerbase, not to limit it. Having the main queue become completely casual actually segregates and disbands anyone who was looking to play competitively since they will no longer have an outlet to play on (because there is no platform for them to test their skills and gain rewards based on their standings). This is the opposite for players who were playing casually and cared not for rewards or ranks, which they can still do in a ranked queue.

(Once again excuse my bluntness, but if you didn’t care about season rewards or ranked because you only played Casual, then it doesn’t matter if you join Ranked because you can do the exact same thing, except there’s a little number at the end of the month that gives you rewards).


I understand your frustration about facing opponents who strive to win on the ladder, that is going to happen regardless of what queue you join (as mentioned before, one of the highest motivating factors for playings games is to win, typically that means playing the best/top tier deck you can assemble).

What I meant is that these players will naturally reach higher echelons of play throughout the season (as they continue to acquire wins and progress through the ladder) while you can remain content on whatever Rank you desire (since if you were aiming to be a casual player, this number “does not exist” to you). Over time, this will create a barrier between the top end players (those who strive to reach S-Rank and prove their mettle) and players who aren’t rigorously grinding matches but instead are just having fun.

As mentioned in the OP, we are aware this does inconvenience several groups of players (I’ve listed three, but there are more) and this change is not intended to be a perfect end-all-be-all solution.


OFF-TOPIC

We already deliver bans (temporary and permanent) to individuals who partake in the actions you describe. We have no need to explicitly mention these things because these infractions are few in quantity (and thankfully so).

3 Likes

You mean like promoting and encouraging decks Out Of the Meta ?
© “Sounds good, doesn’t work.” ™
And trust me, I gave a try.
(yeah, was October 2016, I’m trying for almost 2 years now)

There is always a point where you end up being chain raped by the meta. Because “fun” will never be enough when opposed to “victory”, and for one excentric guy playing goofy decks, there will always be 10 others happy to grind a chevron destroying him. I’ve been both, and with Unranked (and Rift, and Frostfire) I really enjoyed playing far far away from the Ladder :wink:

2 Likes

Gold is what I was meaning when I said pay to enter bracket… The same as with draft.
You say it’s not viable but it’s exactly how other online CCGs handle their lobby (well, one of the ways).

There’s presently a poll going and more than half of the community (at least here in the forums) wants casual play.

How can you possibly believe that removing a game mode increased flexibility? Ladder/Ranked is still just that. Yeah, the card pool grew… okay… that would happen with releases. What you say segregates and disbands’ the competitive playerbase is exactly what happened to us.

I have decks that I play in ranked. They are tested and tuned and I know them inside and out. If I want to sit down and pick up some rank, I know I can rely on those. I have decks that are interesting ideas but not reliable. I have decks that are in development. Not having a testing environment means most people are encouraged to play decks that are posted here as “S-Rank” decks… which kills flexibility and innovation. Moreover, the income you mentioned that is used to grow our collections? That comes from dailies primarily, and for me a lot of time, that forces me to play a specific faction, which I might not have a balanced/competitive deck for. Rank isn’t my primary motivator but if I can squeeze into gold or higher, as I have done in the past, then a)more free stuff and b)yay… Sometimes, it’s fun to just play a casual game… one that allows exploratory play and growth… right now it’s just ranked and that choice is gone. If you… as the community manager can’t empathize with that, I really sincerely don’t know what your job here is.

You just said that one of the reasons for making the change was complaints about S-rank decks… you also mentioned floor players. Yet, here you are trying to convince me that my point was invalid, when you yourself outlined the problem. You also said to be the change we want to see…

As I said, that poll… it shows that the majority of players support casual play. It’s not an inconvenience, you nuked the version of Duelyst we played. It’s not an end-all, be-all solution… it is a “here’s half the game you had before” solution. I don’t understand why that’s hard to grasp. I sincerely want to know if this is the final word though or can we expect some kind of change “down the road” to bring the casual mode back?

I mentioned the toxic behavior because you were seemingly saying that those minor annoying behaviors were the depth of the things players encounter playing YOUR game. Again, as community manager, seeing a comment like that makes it seem like you’re pretty out of touch with issues encountered by your playerbase.

Every single response you issued was simply to either just tell me I’m wrong or acknowledge that what I said was accurate. Nothing you’ve done or said offers anything other than confirmation that you guys are aware that more than half of your playerbase is unhappy with this change. I’m not angry, I am frustrated. Being able to keep 2 aspects of gameplay was helpful and managed my expectations of what a gaming session might entail. It also made previous purchasing decisions easier as it seemed like decisions were being made with players like me in mind. That seems to not be the case and honestly I’m regretting having spent money on this game at this point. So there’s that. Either way, I’m going on hiatus, maybe something will change while I’m gone.