Duelyst Forums

Make Creep Great Again!

Hey guys,

Been playing for quite a while now, got 1,800 Lyonar Ranked wins and about 200 with Abyssian. The problems with Creep became apparent as soon as I started experimenting with it: Creep is too slow, too weak and it’s impossible to reliably generate it. Let’s go down the list:

  • Creep is too slow

The 1-drop that spreads Creep is abysmally weak. It’s meant to be a staple of the archetype but it’s like someone made a joke minion and then said, hey let’s put it in the live version and see if anyone actually plays it.

The Abyssal Crawler exemplifies everything bolded above: spreads Creep too slowly, it’s too weak and you can never tell which tile will be affected. That wouldn’t be a problem if there was a way to make it create more than 1 Creep tile per turn but no, you’ll have to wait until late game to get any Creep value out of it.

Shadow Nova is another great example of what I mean: 4 mana and a card to get 4 tiles of Creep is just pathetic. You waste a card to do nothing while the opponent just moves closer, hits face, plays stats on the board and wins.

  • Creep is too weak

Creep does only 1 damage per turn but most games don’t last that long for that damage to matter. While I’m busy spreading Creep to random tiles on the board, the opponent plays actual stats, hits my face and wins.

Of course, I could play the dude that doubles Creep damage, but it’s so shamefully weak. Then I realized the more Creep cards I put in my deck, the weaker the deck becomes. This is counterintuitive but it’s exactly the case. Using an Arcanist example, the more Arcanists you put in a deck, the stronger the deck is because the cards are good on their own and directly enhance one another. But with Creep, the more cards related to it you put in a deck, the weaker the deck becomes because the cards themselves are subpar and the Creep isn’t a significant enough threat to justify going whole hog.

  • Creep is too unreliable

Well, I guess I’ll have to talk about RNG. I get it, RNG is needed to keep things fresh but the problem with it is that it balances out only in an impossibly large number of cases. So, over tens of thousands of games, RNG will be perfectly fair and balanced, but I could very well have a streak of 100 games where the RNG doesn’t go my way and there’s nothing I can do about it. It’s okay if that happens with a minion’s Opening Gambit or Dying Wish since at least you got some stats on the board, but with Creep you got a random single tile that might deal one damage each turn and can be dispelled.

This RNG factor applies across the entire Creep archetype. For example, if I use 2 Ghost Azalea in a deck (which I have crafted 2 of and used), I can have anywhere from 0-8 Creep tiles before drawing the weapon. This is such a huge range of possibilities that it’s impossible to reliably plan for anything, really.

So, what are my suggestions? The suggestion I have is to make Creep deal 0 damage but have the following effect: “Whenever you play a card, deal 1 damage to enemies standing on this tile.” In this way, Creep can be comboed and the opponent can risk it by intentionally standing on Creep. The Abyssian player now has the option of feigning Creep burst or burning through his cards/deck to deal burst damage, which is very flavorful and gives him more ways to play out the game.

Cards that generate Creep could be made the same way, so Abyssal Creeper could have the text: “When you play a card, generate Creep on a nearby diagonal non-Creep tile.” In this way, playing Abyssal Crawler and spamming cards can generate at most 4 Creep tiles, respects positioning but still keeps some RNG. This also gives extra power to some otherwise useless cards, such as Vellumscry (destroy a minion, draw 3 cards).

I have been told by Reddit Duelyst players that Creep was a balancing nightmare in beta, but I don’t think the entire archetype should be swept under the rug. We can make it fun, balanced, position-based with just a dash of RNG to make not just Creep but the entire Abyssian faction great again.

Thanks for reading.

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It doesn’t really matter what the effect of creep is, as long as its negative for your opponent, he will most likely not stand on it. You also have to consider the fact that, if you make the effect powerful, cards that can spawn creep under your opponents feet become incredibly powerful. Sphere + a bunch of lowcost spells in one turn boom 4-5 damage. So no, i don’t think your suggested changes are a good idea, it would break the archetype again.

Right now the point of creep is not to kill opponents standing on it. The point is build up creep for your finishers, i.e Obliterate/Azalea. I agree that Crawler could be better (2 mana 3/2 would be good) and Nova could cost 3 mana but the basic principle of creep is good as it is imo.

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I always thought the point of Creep was not to deal damage but to synergize with other late-game cards like Variax or Obliterate. The suggestions you made seem too powerful and would go against the established style of creeps, which is to slowly choke the enemy into submission. Besides, most creep cards are getting rotated out soon, so I’m pretty sure additional support is coming in the next expansion. We’ll wait and see where that’ll go.

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So, you think playing 4-5 cards shouldn’t be doing 4-5 damage?

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Anything is better than what’s currently on the ground. Now, we can debate how powerful is too powerful but the Creep itself should pose some kind of threat rather than being fairly harmless and there should be attempts to fix the problem rather than just ignoring it and hoping players won’t notice.

I think that if no changes are made to Creep by the set rotation, I won’t play Abyssian and I won’t craft/keep any Creep-related cards. This design decision will actually make my collection management easier!

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Of course not. The spells activate their own effects as well. Imagine a Shadow Nova, a Sphere of Darkness and a BBS. That’s 10 damage total for just 5 mana.

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The old creep before it got re-worked was all about dealing damage (more creep = more damage when you stood on it) and that was annoying to play against even with less creep generating cards. Now its about generating enough creep to allow other cards that rely on it to come online as a wincon.

Although I haven’t read the opening post yet, so I’ll edit this a bit later when I have.

Edit:

Having read the suggested change, I don’t think it would be a good change. It makes every card a 1 damage AoE, assuming you have more than 1 creep tile down. Which would be too powerful considering you could add cycle cards into the deck just to do a free 1 damage ping while drawing cards like with Sphere of Darkness, Inkling Surge (if you are making wraithlings with Nocture) and Replicant. Between those 3 cards you could draw 8 cards, deal 9 damage alone.

But because you can also use Creep as a tool to decide where your opponent can stand even when not on a tile, since you can block them off with something like Shadow Nova. Creep then becomes too restrictive on your opponent. Since if he risks to stand on Creep, he risks taking a lot of damage through the amount of cards you can play. But if moves away its likely that he’s only backing himself into a corner where he can’t escape from. There are other things that can be added into the discussion such as Kelaino being able to heal for silly amounts before being able to deal with her with the suggested change.

As for the current creep tiles being slow, its part of the point of tiles to be a slower way to reach an end game wincon. But the game is at a point where slow decks don’t seem to be in a favourable position for now. However, when the next expansions comes around it could change… or not.

Too many cooks, spoil the broth. Basically. If you rely too much on creep cards then it falls apart, same for Arcanysts but to a lesser degree. Which is why sometimes only the strongest synergy cards get put into decks along side strong/reliable cards that don’t have to work off that synergy to be good.

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I think they’re plenty of harm simply by existing. I never know whether the opponent will pull out an Azalea or Obliterate the board. That aside, I do acknowledge creeps are currently in a bad position, but the changes you suggested are just outlandish.

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Just read the bolded parts.

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Have you tried playing Abyssian with Creep as win condition?

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No. Why is that relevant?

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This whole conversation seems pretty pointless to me.

Creep is simply not in the meta, just like midrange swarm or Arcanyst Lyonar or Arcanyst Abyssian or most any Maehv deck. Things fall and rise from the meta depending on other meta decks and the new support they get.

Not only that, but creep is rotating out. Who cares as far as primary ladder goes, creep will completely change with the next expansion anyways.

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Yes as my main; now I am only gold and a newish player (although I have spent some money on the deck)…I love the obliterate concept where you blow the whole board up and that is the win-con…

Do I think creep is a bit slow; yeah esp. without Klaxon(s) and I am FAR from the best pilot around; but the deck can work at least in gold level and prob diamond too if I was any good.

Is swarm a problem - yes; but frankly that is down to the whole firestorm cancertra deck than anything else; besides all decks should be vulnerable or the game becomes Hearthstone (sorry boring)…

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Yeah in 2 months there will be new cards which support the archetype. Nothing will happen till then.

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Check out Pestilence, @deathsadvocate’s creep deck. Probably the best that can be done with creep right now. Warning, legendaries ahoy.

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I have been trying to make old school creep work, and its ok, but it does certainly feel lackluster, and as you can see my most successful creep deck barely qualifies as a creep deck.

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Creep is such a cool arcehtype…the idea that you actually need to build up your finishers.Unfourtanetly its not very good right now…there are more stable controldecks that still have a wincon of compareable strengh,if not superior since they don,t need setup
I think that CPG will push creep with the next expansion…its going to die because the important stuff rotates out and thus will get new and hopefully strong support.

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I run a version of this; and it is a LOT of fun - yes you can tear your hair out when you miss all your cards and get wiped on turn 5 - but when you blow up the Cancerhai general and laugh at his desiccated corpse; nothing feels better…

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they tried high damage creep and that had to be nerfed.
they have finisher cards, but the meta is too fast to reach them.
creep simply needs more utility to be effective again.
nethermeld and choking tendrils were a step in the right direction, but not nearly enough.
the fact that the best “creep” deck only has 5 cards with creep synergy is sad.

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Yeah, I think the Pestilence deck can count on having 6-7 Creep tiles by 8 mana, though I still don’t think that’s good enough to be competitive.

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