Duelyst Forums

Faie's bbs needs to be changed

#1

Alright, I know I’m flogging a dead horse, in the words of one community member who got triggered the last time such a topic came into being, but I honestly can’t stand faie’s bbs. Playing both against her, and as her, burn faie is far too toxic. (no the faction itself isn’t strong, but faie’s bbs is absolute bs). Pardon me if I get too salty.

But I feel rather strongly, that with Faie’s BBS, some games instantly lose all meaning. For example if you were playing a control archetype, one that demands you to get into the lategame, then it’s frankly pointless, and you may as well autoconcede against burnfaie, since the game is going to get over far before your wincon gets going. And the BBS’ synergy with mentor and cryptographer is absurd.

Hell, when you get locked down with a gravity well, you’re literally just a sitting duck waiting to get shot. Now while I understand that control decks will naturally be weak against aggro, I don’t think that if you’ve got a beautifully built up board, with an excellent shot at winning, with the aggro deck completely out of steam, you should still lose, because Faie shoots you down every turn.

This frankly extends beyond just Vanar, burn damage in general is a problem, but not to the extent of Vanar. Because at least with Burnhorn, or Mantrahai, or gateshai or all your other uninteractive, board-ignoring decks, they atleast require combo pieces. But with Faie, this problem is even more unchecked. Because burn Faie can just sit in a corner roasting you with her bbs. Even if she doesn’t have any minions on the board, she could use her bbs.

At nine mana, it takes but a few turns to kill you, especially if she’s on the other side of the board, and if you’re desperately marching towards her trying to get that kill. And even games you could have won with just another turn, simply become a stupid loss because of that. And while I understand that Duelyst is supposed to be a superfast CCG, it doesn’t make sense to completely shut out all ideas of control archetypes.

I mean, I just played through several games as vanar, where I just sat around killing people with out of hand damage. Even when somebody gets down something good, like a Gate, or hell a superbuffed grow minion in some really nice plays, I could just smack down a lategame mentor or two, and knock down eight damage. And that frankly feels just terrible.

Especially since in the lategame you run out of removal, whatever each side puts down tends to stick. I just played a game where I had an amazing grow rampage going, though faie was on the other end of the board, and before I could even get a hit on her, I was dead from burn damage.
Which is another aspect, since Faie’s BBS ensures that there are no comebacks. If you are low on health, consider the game over, even if you won back the board by some miraculous play, and had a great chance of winning. Which is just stupid, since with all but Vanar and Songhai, you can actually play out that comeback win. Or even a standard win.

I think the greatest objection people have brought up over this was that Vanar doesn’t have much else to go with other than this. Nerfin Faie’s bbs would kill the faction. But by the next expansion at least, lets say, this could be fixed, assuming CCG released cards that made Vanar meta again.

And thats just toxic, to limit deckbuilding in that manner. If CCG wanted to even the ground, they should have some decent downside to the bbs. Like maehv’s bbs where the general damage’s itself, or something where only minions are hit. Whatever the case, something should be changed.

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#2

I’m just wondering what @deathsadvocate has to say on this topic.

And although the post is barely readable, I feel you, m8.

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#3

Formatting, pls.
And really, if you want to rant on Faie, do so, but don’t drag the entire faction into it.

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#4

The only thing we need changing here is a greater appreciation for the use of paragraphs and at least the effort to spell the name of the faction you’re critical of correctly.

Oh also you’re wrong but considering the effort put into your title alone I’m not sure I should have expected much.

#5

Since they spelt it right multiple times later I’m going to assume it was a terrible attempt at a joke, much like the idea that Faie’s BBS is singlehandedly quashing archetypes out of the game.

2 Likes
#6

I guess it was a way to show strong emotions towards the topic.

#7

Now that’s an idea! How about: Deal 2 damage to everything in the enemy General’s column and your General. Fixes the whole Burn Faie problem! GENIUS!

1 Like
#8

First - vanar is the worst faction to even start talking about, how many vanar players have you encountered? I played against 4 out of 60 games all 4 are hardcore vanar players.
Last session i met maybe 15 out of 200 games, give you a look into the shape of the faction.

Now for faie’s bbs - faie deals 2 damage, every two turns, bbs syncronize with crypto (which gives maehv 4/4 on board, covered by abyss massive healing synergy which vanar doesn’t have) and mentor.
These are 3 units you need a spell to remove.
Have you seen aggro zirix? Or reva? That actually use the board + higher dmg potentiel then faie (vanar damage output is wayyyyyyy weaker then reva’s and cass and based on the stickiness of units).
Faie is the easier aggro deck to bash and i say it as a vanar player that plays control.

Mentor is not even that crazy - you said you had a board ready, faie’s weakness is alot of things to deal with alot of stuff, where is that board? And where is your removel?
I can tell you that there’s nothing wrong with her bbs, it suits playstyle beautifully to create pressure and distruction.

Btw - i really feel like vanar should get major buffs to line up with the meta, this is sad.

#9

Most midranged or tempo decks worth their salt can outrace Faie’s BBS with superior board if they tried to win just from burn. Burn Faie is good against control decks without heal, but that’s just the regular rock-paper-scissors deal that the game always had. It’s just a counter deck that happens to exist. Whether or not this sort of gameplay is a good thing is a matter of discussion, but burn Faie is not the only hard counter out there (Singleton decks > midranged, artifacts > Magmar, Magmar > swarm)

Ice age + Winter’s wake is pretty cheesy though.

#10

On principal I tend to dislike burn that has no counterplay. Burn in small doses is fine, it only really reaches an unhealthy point when it is unconditional, really busty, and or when it is your win condition.

Spellhai variants tend to be the ultimate example of uninteractive solitaire decks with little to no counterplay that really do not have a place in a tactical board game. Deci/Spikes is another problem but it is at least the only source of burn and if they are low on health they cant use it/if they don’t kill you with it you can punish them for feeding you cards, but it still offers far to much highroll burst potential to really be healthy.

But Faie? I actually think she is a reasonably healthy example of burn. Not bursty, the only source of it in the faction, just slow chip damage that can be countered by aggression or healing. The positional aspect can be played around, and in trade for damage her BBs can not apply board pressure.

Mentor/Crypto does push it a little far but mentor can be killed fairly easily, and the only way they can do an unconditional eight damage is with a specific nine mana two card combo. And it does require those two specific cards to do any kind of combo and they are often needed much earlier in the game.

In summary, Faie is fine, although there is a case to be made that her interaction with mentor is a bit much. But considering how non dominant the faction is at the moment this interaction is fine as it is still leagues above the other offenders health wise and generally feels fair as you just always need to save removal for mentor.

7 Likes
#11

And Cryptographer!

#12

Crypto without Mentor is barely worth talking about, and Mentor can be removed. Thus why I think things here are fine.

#13

I find it rather odd that you bring this topic up at this particular time, because hardly anyone plays Vanar anymore. I don’t think you were able to play against that many Burn Faie players to get consistently frustrated and feel motivated to make a post on the matter specifically.

1 Like
#14

What I’ve been arguing for, is that aggro tends to shut down control very easily. Burn completely shuts out control. Especially if said control is lacking healing. While the problem is clearly evident in multiple places, Songhai and Burnhorn especially, the biggest problem I feel, is with Faie’s bbs. Faie especially has this problem, since as I said before, she can use her bbs all the time, whereas spellhai OTK’s require a handful of highly situational cards, and highroll.

With Vanar, highroll only accentuates the problem. That is not to mention, that with cards like hearth sister, Faie’s bbs also can function as removal. Which is a very, very versatile bbs Which again, eliminates any possibility of defeating a Faie at low health, if she sits on the other side of the board. And that mandates including heal in your deck.

The interaction with cryptographer and mentor is again a bit much. While removal is everywhere, a mentor in the lategame can easily stick, especially against control decks. Now while this is would be fine if it were just a card, but when the problem is so fundamental that it’s a general’s bbs, I think things need to change.

@halcyon98 About four burn players in six matches. Which is probably just my luck.

1 Like
#15

Quite possibly. It will most likely never happen again.

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#16

Control decks should run healing. And if you don’t have removal for mentor in a control deck that’s probably your fault. If you lack healing in a control deck then you are just asking to eat it to aggro in general not just burn, and while I am not a fan of aggro it plays an important role in the game. Healing often wont help you versus true burn or spikes, but it can make faies BBs almost irrelevant, and should be included due to aggro.

Vanar highroll? What? Sorry, not trying to just be a contrary jerk, but I don’t think Faie really has a highroll. The other decks in mention are not really using situational cards, they tend to be very flexible cards that are just good all around. Crypto/Mentor with faie do exactly one thing and are again the only source of burn. Yea sister is a very good card, all factions have good cards, vanar has fewer then most.

It is just mentor, it is just that one card, I don’t think anything else in there could even be remotely considered a problem. Without mentor faies BBs probably wont even be enough to put down a control deck that lacks healing unless they just utterly lack a wincondition. And as a control deck mentor should be dying/you should have healing, not cus of faie, or burn, but because of aggro being a hard match up in general.

Yes I can understand thinking mentor/warbird is a bit much on a fundamental level. But realistically its pretty dang fair. The other actual problematic burn sources would need to be eliminated and the game pushed into a purely board focus direction (which would be a wonderful thing) before this would even be worth talking about, and even then Faie would likely be fine, it would just be about mentor, which is not even a vanar card.

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#17

Ofc it’s a Vanar card, it’s a neutral after all
:sweat:

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#18

I actually think it’s the other way around. Control decks are the decks that actually have the healing and sustain to survive the burst from Aggro decks, and it’s also able to remove threats more efficiently. I’d even argue that a control deck has the best chance against Burn.

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#19

I disagree. The traditional archetype breakdown is Aggro>Combo>Control>Midrange>Aggro.

Control runs healing to help even the odds against what could be a bad match up with aggro. Control/Aggro tend to be fairly neutral matchups as long as both are teched appropriately, and both can be teched in ways to tilt the match up favor. Midrange tends to have the perfect blend of healing and aggression to beat down burn/aggro.

5 Likes
#20

But I do think they fare better against aggro relatively well, especially when they focus more on sustain. Once a control deck drags the match into the late-game, there’s really not much an aggro deck could do.