I dunno man, Blood of Air is like the ultimate removal card. Vet in general has been getting better and better control while all of Vanar’s control options have been nerfed over time.
Does Duelyst have balance problems?
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Well, any midrange Hai variant desperately needs neutrals, healers included.
And what’s the catch with using neutrals anyway? If any faction could perfectly live withour them. they would be useless.
Having Horn and EMP as staples is not a Vet problem, it’s the problem of these two cards.
And what do you mean by being competetive? When I played more, I reached diamond and even S (once) never ever using meta deck. Following meta is overrated.
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Due to AB, people still think control is the best playstyle for vanar. It is not, burn is the best playstyle although it’s underplayed, if played right it can outpace any deck, including mantra. The other top playstyle is ramp, which aims to bring your late game closer to you and drop multiple EMPs, Grove Lions and Ghost Seraphims.
(this statement is to backup the argument about removal)
BoA is a wonder, no questions.
And it’s not even a contest between Vanar and Vetruvian, it’s global, it’s about giving all the factions the chance to be competitive at all levels.
Vanar has a (recent)history of being a broken faction, with broken faction cards. Last time I heard of broken faction cards in Vet was the laser-cat era and the pre-nerf Maelstorm. Pre-nerf, gone. Besides, Vanar is doing pretty well atm, but similarly to Vet has some of the best archetypes based on the use of fundamental neutrals. And Faie’s BBS is arguably the best.
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The midrange Hai is one of the type of the decks that make Songhai competitive, one of them, and I would really argue on the “desperately needs” part concerning healers.
I think the need of neutral and especially healers is practically a Vetruvian issue. Songhai has such an availability of removals to clear all the threats possible.
I don’t think neutrals should become useless cards, just not so fundamental for factions to succeed. Imo It’s fine if you run 1 super strong very effective neutral (like let’s say EMP or TH) but the moment you need other 2, or even 3 neutrals in order to get 1 type of deck to be competitive (from diamond to s-rank let’s say), something is wrong, and should be fixed.
I disagree on the fact that EMP and TH should be nerfed, and it’s not because they wouldn’t deserve it as they’re OP, I just think that the problem is somewhere else: factions having the need to run them.
For example I wouldn’t run EMP if I wouldn’t need to.
If I don’t run it I don’t have a good Siphon that dispells a far away minion which I cannot cheaply kill? Against Titan deck? Against masses of minions that I should dispell in general? General buffs when I’m almost dead with no minions? And so on…
I don’t know which factions, when, in which meta and for how many seasons you reached s-rank, It shouldn’t be an issue if this game wouldn’t be so much about picking the right faction when the right cards are around. Following meta should be overrated but there’s a reason why we see only certain decks making it to the top while others don’t. Sure you can hit diamond and s-rank and mess around with non-meta decks and even meme decks, even winning, but if Ideally you want to get to the top there’s something non-skill related that Duelyst could benefit.
Vanar actually only had 1 meta where it was truly dominant, the first month of AB it was a tier 0 deck, it’s only “bad” match up was golem vaath. Otherwise vanar was good but never broken since RoTB. In UP I would say reflection faie was the third best deck with aggro Cass and Azure Vet being better than it (I will get to the latter later.) Reflection Faie was a bad deck if it didn’t draw it’s combo peices, so I find my control build to be the most optimised version as it could win in other ways. If played correctly, it could win any match up, but that took a lot of skill, now they are strong but not broken.
Vetruvian on the other hand has been broken through out beta ruiling almost every meta with an iron fist, then zirix had the best BBS that this game will ever see (Summon a 2/2 wind dervish) even better than Kara’s old bbs. After that they where strong in shim’zar with kron and nimbus, then Songhai players found how good Reva was on October. After being “weak” (Aggro Vet was a really strong dexk that few knew about, it only picked up steam during early AB) for about Six months, Flying Vet or Azure became a very powerful deck with the powerful combo of Azure Summoning + Skywing which summons 3x 3/3 with flying and 3x 2/1 flying this was the leading deck in S, although it was underplayed, it’s like mermail and fire fist format in Yu-gi-oh where all the players and pro-playera where saying fire fist was the best deck so as more people heard that, more people played it, so it got the most tops, so there was more evidence for it being the best deck, so more played it, but In reality Mermail was far more powerful. In this case Aggro Cass is fire fist and Azure Vet is mermail.
(yes I understand you were talking about removal in general.)
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Ok, I step aside when comes to defining what’s truly the best way to play Vanar, I only tried to point out that the faction has very good resources in that department making it not so much in need for healing while lacking of it as much as Vetruvian.
In ramp there’s a lot of neutrals, which partially justifies what I say, and I say partially because it’s not the only effective play style of Vanar. Than again Vanar also, in burn decks, uses a lot of neutral too.
Are Vanar and Vetruvian destined to use neutrals more than others 
?
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Yes, both vanar and vetruvian have amazing spells but few good minions, early AB vanar relied on meltdown to win games, and when that was hit they where much weaker.
I said EMP instead of meltdown, oops.
Well, it’s arguable who has the best removals. Hai has lots of dmg based removals, sure, but Vet removal is in a very strong position now, including Falcius, BoA, that 5 mana sand guy and LiD, which are all meta.
Well, with your seeming adherence to meta “not fundamental” means “useless”. Well, if a neutral is not top tier, who will use it
So, not to seem too sceptical, a constructive question. What place do you actually see for the neutrals in your ideal Duelyst?
I think all factions are on the same level bar abyssian wich right now has desolator and nothing else and I hope the next expansion will fix that. When it comes to factions design I would like to see more viable Vanar minions, right now only seraphim, sister and embla are good and if you look at competitive Vanar deck they are full of neutrals. That’s bad imho.
When it comes to balance, I hope they will nerf thorn and EMP because they are way too good for neutral minions, their stats should be reduced.
There should always be the chance for a faction to be capable of being competitive with very little use of neutral cards. Azure vet had lots of neutral to build around a fistful of spells.
Yes, I agree with you: V and V have lots of amazing spells, not so tough minions…
For the Duelyst chronicle part: all of that was healed with nerfs and changes, which is what I’m hoping for, along buffs, maybe, why not…
You’ll probably hate me for this but I proposed in a different topic to change Faie’s BBS into “deal 2 damage to ANYTHING on the enemy general’s column” and Zirix into “summon a 2/2 iron dervish nearby” 
(Sorry but I couldn’t follow the Yu-gi-oh parallelism, I have a very rough knowledge, but I played MTG for years so if you are/were into it that could work for comparisons)
BTW, for the reference.
This is Grincher’s Vet Deck:
Another one of his:
No neutral healers whatsoever. The last one doesn’t even have Thunderhorn.
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Vetruvian’s removals are of a very strange kind and each one of those you mention deserves a specific note:
Falcius) Vet Jesus, sort of: rotates with the new expansion (GOD PLEASE NO HELP US!!!).
BoA: look at my avatar <3 .
Sandswirl) He bounces minions: amazing tempo guy plus “trades” a body like Falcius, but removes really only if oppo has 6 cards and requires proximity.
LitD) Strong and situational most of the time. Punishes one-man-army generals but not so effective otherwise as good gamers really put an effort playing around it.
Songhai hits you face. Always. You can only play around T-bomb and for minions the Onyx Seal can hit everywhere (like Siphon used to do…).
I’m talking about those neutrals which are so powerful that they’re broken, but legitimately broken, which means that are strong and they should stay as such like EMP, but I see the problem in the lack of certain cards or mechanics in some factions, and the overruling power of some factions because of their cards. I wouldn’t nerf EMP bout I would fix the reasons why players desperately need to use it.
I didn’t find where you took the quote you used to ask your question, so I don’t really know what is the subtext and to what specifically refers, but I will try to answer.
In my opinion neutrals should always have a place for all the factions in all the formats of Duelyst. But when comes to ranked mode the situation should becomes particular and from now on I’ll be referring to ranked mode.
All the neutral cards, as potentially playable in all faction’s deck, should provide help to support techs and fill the gaps.
They could also consist in a specific own archetype potentially fitting all factions (replace archetype for example, with all neutral minions with replace-related abilities)
Neutral cards’ presence in high number (quantifying? sometimes 4 sometimes 5, I’d roughly say) shouldn’t be justified by multiple lacks that a faction has. More specifically, every faction should be able to be competitive at all levels in every meta without the abuse of neutral cards or with the almost obligatory use of one specific card that has become a “meta definer” (see pre-nerf Meltdown, Saberspine, Kron, T-horn, for example).
Yeah, it was kinda out of context, tbh.
Also, I agree with your point that neutrals should not be meta defining.
What I disagree with most is that Vet is in the weakest position factionwise. Vet faction cards are OK, IMO.
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If it’s “unbearable”, you’re not thinking huge enough, I regularly make Vaath run away like a little girl (he is) 
More seriously, on a the balance topic, as long as people don’t play the same elements (not like in chess for instance), there is and will always be an issue and nothing to do about it, CPG just has to keep the walk steady … as walking is just falling and catching yourself 
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Look, I get what you’re trying to say with those deck lists: competitive players, reliable in deck building, guarantee of success, if well played.
Let’s put on one side the fact that more than decks lists images, replays of actual games where those lists win games against other competitive players with competitive decks in diamond/s-rank would be more reliable - and maybe you will link them here/to me or somebody else will do, they’re welcome - .
That said the Vetruvian problem with healing appears very often when facing basically all Songhai for example, and I encounter a lot of them these days (and this is not mere saltyness for Songhai, it’s just a very blatant example), or very long games when all the other factions are either capable of healing or burning you quicker.
I’m not sure of what is the solution, but I’m working on one, maybe I’ll make a post about it.
Just send these people a friend’s invite and watch replays. But hurry before the new patch deploys
Really I don’t know how you struggle against hai with vet. Afaik, since the introduction of BoA and LitD vet counters hai hard.
Let’s see if I’m wrong with a simple poll:
- Vet generally reks Hai.
- Vet generally gets rely by Hai.
- The poll is stupid
0 voters
EDIT. I got a typo in the poll and can’t edit it. rely->rekt
“since the introduction”
Hate to break it to you fam, but Vet has been dumpstering on Hai since before Shimzar.
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