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[Discussion] The Death of Fair Decks?

The Death of Fair Decks?

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The Duelyst of my Dreams

Some people don’t really know what they want Duelyst to be like. The preference seems to vary depending on what’s dominating the meta at that point in time. The gut says “I don’t like this” and the mind has to find rational justifications to line up with that feeling. For me, things have been pretty clear from the start and I don’t think I’ve shifted my position on what I’d like Duelyst to be very much over the months. I’d like Duelyst to be about making smart, tactical decisions that involve both players interacting with the battlefield board, either by finding openings to attack or closing them off through clever positioning choices that are further impacted by players needing to anticipate common enemy threats and counters. Game play progression should follow a pattern of exponential escalation where card impact scales exponentially with their cost. Instead of a 4-cost card being twice as impactful as a 2-cost card and half as impactful as an 8-cost card it could be three times as impactful as the 2-cost card and one-tenth as impactful as the 8-cost card. The exact progression isn’t important, the key thing is that there should be an exponential power curve.

The (horizontal) X-axis denotes the Mana cost of a card and the (vertical) Y-axis denotes its impact or power. All cards should be designed to be as close to that red line, either individually or within the context of other relevant cards. Individual cards can sit above or below the power curve, but only if their lack or excess of power is balanced within is archetype where its presence is mandatory for the archetype to function so the whole archetype balances out. In Duelyst I’d like it if game progression follows that curve in terms of power where the tipping point into infinite power happens around 8 Mana (I call it “the 8-Mana Rule”). Duelyst wants to be fast, so i don’t mind cards with huge impacts coming into play at around the 8-9 Mana mark at all, I actually think it’s very satisfying for matches to end in a big way after a good back and forth, but only if the climax matches the build-up (we’ll get back to that caveat). This is all very theoretical, so let’s get concrete.

Fair and Unfair in Duelyst

I’m a sucker for fair decks. To me, a fair deck is characterized by a few aspects. First, it follows the power curve (duh). Second, its game plan is characterized by back and forth interaction between players. Third, it doesn’t feature elements that can only be effectively answered by other specific builds (like a rock-paper-scissors structure). The more these aspects are met, the more fair the deck is. Conversely, and unfair deck abuses the power curve, minimizes the opponent’s interactions and/or has very specific counters to it. I personally like playing Duelyst a lot whenever I get to play fair decks and I get matched up against fair decks. I dislike it whenever I’m playing an unfair deck and/or I get matched up against an unfair deck. I enjoy trading pieces, building incremental advantage, finding value, playing efficiently, running my opponent out of cards over time and increasing my lead when they spend an entire turn refueling and engaging in deep mind games where I play around every real and imagined threat I can think of until the match ends due to either a big bomb or a final burst of damage that felt earned. Most importantly: the matches feel like the conclusion matched the build-up, meaning that the winning player earned their victory by making smart plays over several turns that allowed them to parlay that advantage into victory. That’s so satisfying. But increasingly, that type of Duelyst game play seems to be going away. Instead I’ve noticed the competitive side of the game has become largely defined by a very small number of extremely powerful cards and interactions.

I’ve played the Pokémon videogames for a long time and I followed the Pokémon Showdown (for competitive PvP matches) scene for a while as well. They use a concept called “centralization” to describe to which degree a meta is dominated by a selection of Pokémon within each of their tiers (Pokémon from any tier can’t be played in a lower tier). The more centralized, the fewer Pokémon were actually being played competitively. In Duelyst, a centralized meta would be one dominated by a handful of decks that rely on a narrow selection of cards. I believe Duelyst is becoming more centralized than it has ever been, following the release of Immortal Vanguards. Unfair cards (as described by me) dominate the game and are so powerful and so overwhelming that losing a turn means losing the match. Instead of an enjoyable back and forth matches become countdowns of “whoever plays it first, wins” and the disadvantage after falling behind is so great that there is no fair way to make a comeback. The result for me: play the unfair cards or get comfortable losing most of my matches in ways that frustrate me. Instead of matches being decided by incremental advantage they’re determined by big swings using unfair cards. Two caveats to this:

  1. Not all powerful cards are unfair: I think Makantor Warbeast, Holy Immolation, Grapnel Paradigm etc are very powerful and above the curve, but they have reasonable counterplay and their impact is typically not so big as to make a comeback effectively impossible.
  2. Not all big swings are unfair: I think combo decks can be very legitimate and interesting and good for the game, but only if their “swing” is in line with the amount of disadvantage the player suffers from trying to set it off. The harder it is to do, the bigger the payoff can be.

My issue is with cards and interactions that are unfair to the degree that they create an insulated bubble of hyper-powered decks that are so above and beyond everything else that they push everyone who wants to win matches to play the same cards, creating centralization and so decreasing diversity. Then, if that bubble is filled with insurmountable swings that come out of nowhere and/or turn matches into rock-paper-scissor simulators the game isn’t even enjoyable to play after you sold your soul to get into the bubble because matches are decided by who can abuse their unfair things first. Again, all seen from my perspective.

Before I get into examples of the cards and interactions I find unfair and the archetypes that I think exemplify fairness I need to lay out three “impact speeds” that I describe how quickly a card or interaction can impact the board (in various ways). The slower the impact speed, the more powerful the card or interaction should be i.e. the bigger the wind-up is, the bigger the swing should be. The impact speeds are:

  1. Instant: Refers to cards and interactions that deliver their impact on the same turn that they’re played. They require no setup from previous turns other than drawing the relevant cards.
  2. Telegraphed: Refers to cards and interactions that deliver their impact the turn after they’re played. They require the player to set up a certain board state in their previous turn at the latest in order to be effective.
  3. Delayed: Refers to cards and interactions that take two or more turns to set up.

Cards and interactions at Instant speed should have the lowest relative impact and Delayed ones should have the most. As @Smash_the_Hamster already warned us about though: Duelyst’s board makes it easier for players to play uninteractively because they can try to hide minions behind their General and/or simply back away for a turn or two as they get their unfair cards geared up. This makes these cards especially dangerous because it makes it very hard for the other player to sabotage them.

Examples of Centralizing Cards & Interactions

So now that we’ve covered the power curve, centralization, fairness and impact speed, let’s put them all together to critique a number of cards and interactions that I personally believe are unfair to the degree that they contribute to the warped game play environment where fair decks can’t do well anymore.

  • Azure Summoning + Skywing + Skylark
    Normally, 7 Mana gets you a 10/10 worth of stats. For two cards Vetruvian gets to thin their deck by 6 cards and put 15/12 worth of stats on the board with Flying instead, spread over multiple bodies. If the opponent doesn’t have a specific way to clear the board the match is just about over, and all that at Instant speed. The Vetruvian player didn’t have to prepare the board for this combo (which is even faster if they did develop a Skywing) and it puts an insane amount of tempo into the hands of the Vetruvian player, even if they were behind previously. Dealing with 6 separate bodies that can’t be avoided with positioning is not something most fair decks can actually do. There are answers, but if you don’t have or run them you’re done. And the funny thing is that this is interaction is a relatively minor offender compared to its competitors, not in the least because it can make your draws very clunky! At 7 Mana things are allowed to get a bit cookie and the Flyers don’t have Rush so the enemy can try to counter the combo with cards like Rebuke, Plasma Storm, Frostfire and Tempest.

  • Deceptib0t + Assassination Protocol + SILVER in deck (+ Metaltooth on board)
    Normally 5 Mana gets you around 4/9 worth of stats. Songhai gets to summon 11/10 worth of stats instead, of which the 4/5 effectively has Rush to remove a minion with. Gods help you if you dared be unable to spend removal on a 2 Mana minion tucked behind the enemy General on turn 1 or 2. If you’re playing a fair deck that leverages incremental advantage you can’t compete with nor come back from a combo that delivers tempo at instant speed and also controls your board. It doesn’t always go off, but the payoff is so enormous that just having the combo in your back pocket is too valuable to pass up. These cards are all viable by themselves already anyway.

  • Deceptib0t + Kinematic Projection + SILVER in deck
    Although less unfair because you need to Telegraph it by developing a Deceptib0t first you can take advantage of the same combo to give SILVER Blast as well. If you Project on the same turn you play Metaltooth you just got yourself a triple Blast combo. That last scenario is highly unlikely so most players will likely settle for “just” the 5 Mana 11/10 combo.

  • Thunderhorn + Aspect of Shim’Zar
    This is getting rotated out in a few months but until then it’ll continue to be one of the most unfair interactions in Duelyst right now. At Instant speed, with no prior setup you get to decimate almost any common enemy formation. Worst part is, both cards are already excellent even outside of their combo use.

  • Thunderhorn + Assassination Protocol
    Aspect of Shim’Zar may be rotating out but Assassination Protocol is going to be around for a long, long time. You can’t damage the enemy General but most fair decks trying to build incremental advantage can kiss their plans goodnight because just playing minions to develop a board for use a turn later isn’t cutting it anymore.

  • Flawless Reflection + Ghost Seraphim + Walls/Illusions
    Everybody already knows this one: if you fail to clear the enemy board before turn 7 you end up with a horde of 8/9’s with effectively Rush at Telegraphed speed. Or maybe they make copies of your big threat instead? If you were too busy playing fair to get rid of all of those stunning or exploding Walls you just lost the game.

  • Ripper Egg + Morin-Khur + Greater Fortitude
    Ragnora doesn’t even seem like much of a problem anymore but let’s see if we get this right: 7 Mana combo for 15 damage at Instant speed. No setup, immediate payoff on the turn it was played and a likely OTK if you failed to completely clear their board. You thought you were ahead on life? No, you were already dead. Saberspine Tiger gets nerfed and it could only push 9 damage to face if you include the General punch.

  • SILVER + Mechaz0r
    This one isn’t complicated. If you’ve been developing Mechs in your first few turns you’re likely to able to summon Mechaz0r on 7 Mana. You summon SILVER and a Helm and suddenly your board has all the keywords. If you maintained a Metaltooth you just win right then and there. Mechaz0r isn’t the worst offender anymore because of its Delayed speed and the setup you need to dominate the board but it still delivers those unbeatable swings even if you were losing on tempo.

  • Divine Bond
    Divine Bond isn’t strong enough to warp anything these days but it’s a classic example of an unfair card. Starting from 5 Mana the opponent can every afford to leave any Lyonar minion with a reasonable amount of Health alive out of fear of Afterblaze + Bond or simply double Bond on 6 Mana. Most minions with at least 5 Health are liable to end the game out of seemingly nowhere at Telegraphed speed. Bond was rightly complained about until it got straight-up outclassed by all the other cheese mucking up the meta.

  • Owlbeast Sage
    Like Divine Bond Owlbeast Sage demands a nigh-immediate answer in most cases. An unanswered turn 2 Owlbeast will destroy any deck without on-hand dispel because the value generated from it will quickly overwhelm most fair decks through sheer volume. It’s mostly a Delayed threat and there is counterplay to it so it wouldn’t be near the top of any worst offenders list but the harsh answer-or-die nature gives it a spot in my list nonetheless.

  • EMP
    EMP is just so insanely strong for its cost and destroys so many archetypes that I couldn’t leave it out of my list. If you’re building a swarm, or relying on key Artifacts or trigger minions you’re out of luck. You now have to deal with a 9/9 and all the tools you need to function were just destroyed. EMP is such a centralizing force that I resent it on a deep, personal level. And all that at an unconditional Instant speed. You can just splash it into your deck, no problem!

There are some corner cases like Mantra, Millhorn, Unbirth and Surgeforger that I could discuss but they have some redeeming qualities that led me to leave them out here. Let me know if you want to hear more.

A Future for Fair Decks?

After all that whining, what do I like to see? Well, that shouldn’t be that hard to figure out! I like Doom decks, Creep, Wraithling Swarm, Variax, Heal, Zeal, classic zoo decks, Backstab, Grow, Stun, Vespyr, Obelysk, Arcanyst, Golem, Token, Solo and Sabotage decks and probably a bunch more that I can’t think of right now! Decks with clear and interesting mechanisms for fighting their way to victory. Decks that build their victory slowly from turn to turn by denying enemy plays and eking out that bit of advantage or by baiting the opponent into a sudden punishment. Decks that need to put in effort to refuel and take time to rebuild after a failed attack. It’s not that hard. I want to see a lot of different decks that surprise me and make me feel like a dope for losing rather than a victim. Yes I’d prefer to main Zir’An, Brome and Sajj, how did you guess?

The question for me is whether or not this is just the current meta or if fair decks are just going to be permanently outclassed. A lot of these unfair interactions come from Immortal Vanguards so they’ll be around for a very long time before rotating out and I can’t see a way for the archetypes I just mentioned to do well without relying on some of the unfair cards and interactions I discussed. @unreason’s crusade for better balance in Duelyst isn’t coming out of nowhere, it’s a response to a game that is pushing more and more of its own cards out of game play to make room for newer, more unfair cards to rage over. Balance doesn’t need to be perfect but it should be at a point where you don’t feel delusional for playing Duelyst like it were Chess instead of Russian Roulette.

Cheers.

PS: I’ll likely be tweaking this post and adding to it because I’m compulsive like that so don’t be confused if something’s changed. I need to get to bed now.

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I think developers are seeing this too, which I think is why the rotating format will be introduced next expansion, to put a cap on the power a deck can have.

I hope people will hold out for the new format to see if some less-than-healthy decks die out.

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I only really have expertise as far as Magmar goes, so I’ll just say this.

The Ripper combo is not interactive, and shouldn’t have a place in Duelyst. I specifically mean interceptor+thumping+fortitude+flash. Yes this is 8 mana and doesn’t work in every situation, but it’s a solitaire strat, meaning there is no back and forth with the opponent. Yes it was fun messing around for a while, but now that I had my fun I accept that it shouldn’t really have a place. Is it top tier? No. But it ignores the game. However, interceptor, thumping, and Morin will rotate out when the standard format goes live, so things will be better at that point.

I can say the same about Mantra Songhai. It’s just playing shit cards while ignoring the board and building your OTK while running away. It’s not fun, there is no back and forth, it’s another solitaire strategy. I don’t think it has a place in Duelyst.

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Worst of all:the rise of unfair decks greatly decreases the skillcap.
An example:
Which kind of skill is required to take a manatile t2 p1 and play decibot+protocol for an insane early board?
At the same time what did you do wrong if you just lost because your enemy destroyed your board and summoned a big mech that same turn 2?(still insane combo later on)
Which kind of skill is required to just slash emp on the board?
Which kind of skill are you asked about while playing against mantrahai?

There is very few meta-stuff right now in duelyst that needs serious setup and alot longterm-thought to be effective because everything that is meta is there because its imidiate or insanely valueable if it survives …the new meta is still forming but this is unlikely to change.

The weight of ones own decisions just got so low…most of the strong stuff is quite easy to just splash on the board and doesn,t need much longtermthought to work
Using positioning to play around stuff like makantor and conditional removal like NS is not something i consider decision…its a thing that you must do,an abseloute basic that is not even difficult to learn or execute.

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You mention playing around Makantor as a problem, but how is that card any different than being forced to play around another board-based effect? Or even effects in general?

Just look at Vetruvian’s tools. You don’t go “ah man, I’m forced never to have a minion with 2 or less attack on the board” just because Grapnel exists, you don’t go “Im forced to never have isolated minions late game” because of Lost in the Desert. You don’t go “I’m forced to have my minions in rows” because Stars exists.

People ask for more effects that interact with the board, then bitch because they have to position their minions because of effects that interact with the board. Smh.

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This is very true. No one will argue with it. The problem is that people also like powerful effects, and those are what make any game exciting. “It’s not chess without a queen” arguments, etc. A proper balance needs to be found between interactivity and enjoyability, and it should be found fast.

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My problem are cards that are imidiate and extremely easy to use and that those are so dominating that every longterm-setup doesnt work right now
Makantor etc are not my problem…its just that people argue that positioning around such stuff makes duelyst a very skillbased CCG…which it not realy is.

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So board based effects aren’t skill based? And immediate effects aren’t skill based?

So you’re saying the only skill is setting down a minion and throwing it into things? Honestly sounds like the least skillful thing about the game.

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I never really had a game when a loss was satisfactory. I just cannot look back to any of my matches, and remember a time I had fun while losing. How can I, when all the decks I meet are aggravating to an absurd degree. Of course, that’s my fault for not playing meta, but I wouldn’t want to frustrate my opponent by playing something like Mantra either. It just won’t feel good, if you understand what I mean. I want to have fun, and I want my opponent to have fun as well. I can’t really help it when the meta wouldn’t let it happen

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@thematsjo I’m…wow…um…really flattered that you mentioned me. “Unreason’s crusade for better balance.” I am actually blushing.

I agree with close to everything you said here. We can argue whether or not Makantor warbeasts or whatever really good cards are fine or should be nerfed, but never mind. There are way bigger fish to fry. You laid it out pretty unavoidably.

There are some utterly broken things happening right now. Cards and combos that you just can’t reasonably expect to come back from. Rotation isn’t enough to fix this. Rotation isn’t a fix at all, assuming that at least one game mode with all the cards enjoys any real popularity. This is bad. No one can possibly argue this kind of gameplay is better than the kind of back-and-forth gameplay you described. What it is now isn’t fun.

@stormshade. @ThanatosNoa. Just getting your attention. What @thematsjo has written here is worth Counterplay’s collective thought. We know that you guys love huge over-the-top effects, a lot of people do, but it feels like something’s gone wrong here.

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Well spoken. One thing I want to point out though between two of your statements:

I don’t think you actually want what you’re saying you want. Most of Duelyst seems to be a more-or-less linear power curve with some exponential and infinite thrown in. If Duelyst or CCG’s had a truly exponential power curve, the impact of NOT having the proper response to an opponent would be exponentially more disastrous. Games would be more decisive and outcomes more clear cut sooner because of the requirement to answer a now higher power than what you may be able to produce in hand.

Any counterpoint I’d love to hear and discuss, because to me it sounds that if an exponential power curve was present, there would be LESS skill and smart, tactical play, necessary than there is now.

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Don’t have time to make a drawn out post right now so i will keep it short and bitter

  1. Duelyst has never been a fair game, at least not during the 18 seasons i’ve played. Given how it’s balanced around all those high impact “answer or die” cards and incredibly efficient removals it’s always been unfair in the sense that one card could decide the match no matter what happened before. Heck even an Excelsious means instant death if you don’t have removal for it and that card is considered trash. If your looking for long games of back and fourth between players focused on the board then Duelyst is clearly the wrong game for you. This might change in the future ofc but i kinda doubt the devs will change their entire design philosophy.

  2. Asking for an exponential powercurve (which Duelyst has imo) and fair games is imo contradictory. If the powercurve is so high it means you get exactly what you have in Duelyst right now. At 6-7 Mana the cards are so powerful that not having the right answer can swing the game around/win you the match even if you have been in the lead before. With such a powercurve a back and forth can’t last long as one side is bound to run out of answers at some point.

  3. Your kinda misusing the “centralized” definition here when i look at your list. The only deck right now that i’d consider centralizing to a problematic degree was Wall Faie or to be more specific Luminous charge. Why? Because the only way to answer this card is Lightbender/EMP. Using normal AOE can result in 10 face damage and is not a real solution. Before UP i rarely had lightbenders in my decks, maybe 3-4 decks over my entire Duelyst career ran that card. Since UP i have at least 2 in literally any deck, not because i like the card but because i have to. The rest of your points don’t really meet the centralizing criterion because there is a wide array of answers/counterplay available to deal with them. You don’t need a specific card/deck. Azure gets countered by pretty much every AOE, Thunderhorns impact can be limited a lot with positioning, especially against the Songhai combo version. Silver can be removed with any kind of removal, leaving the opponent with a damaged deceptibot/nothing. Morin Khur can also be played around. Just don’t stay in Ragnoras attack range with your general and your good to go. The stuff below here isn’t even worth a mention because it’s hardly even relevant as a threat. Maybe except for EMP who is more of a symptom than a desease. He wouldn’t be that common if it wasn’t for wall Vanar.

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Tldr;
Theres a reason #FunAndInteractive
Is a frequently used and highly sarcastic phrase among players.
And these cards that are #FunAndInteractive
Are terrible for the game and noone likes them except the people obsessed with winning
And the rest of us have to play them just not to get dominated by those who do

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With Owlbeast being in your unfair list it’s strange. Owlbeast is the leader of the Arcanyst tribe, there’s almost no reason to run them without him.

Maybe you say this with some Owlbeast rework in mind? Please elaborate.

Also exponential powercurve leads to more control-based games, while Duelyst has “lightning fast matches” as its motto.

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If anything we’d want a logistic power curve.


edit: sorry about the lack of background. Google images has betrayed me.

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This type of curve would mean that cards get weaker overall for their mana cost as the cost increased. It would make any minions above a certain mana cost non-playable.

The reason the power curve increases with mana cost, especially past 7 mana, is to close out games. If the high mana cards were weak, they wouldn’t be an option to finish opponents, and combos would just be in their place (which they often are anyways). It makes sense for a faster-paced game.

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I think the big problem of the game is ramping. Deceptibot +silver is Just The last ramping combo and evryone knows The feel of flash makantor/double mdg/metallurgist into slasher/abjudicator in mantra/ect…All of this are plays that usually are game winning due to The insane value/tempo that they generate. what do you guys think?

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The logistic curve is rotationally symmetric, meaning (I think. It’s been a few years since I took differential equations) cards in the middle are 1/2 as powerful as cards at the top. The top, bottom, and middle are the same as they’d be with a linear curve. And one card with the same power as multiple small cards of the same total cost is more powerful because you don’t need as many cards. 6-8 cost cards may be hurt a little, but 9 cost cards are fine.

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becuz lavaslasher exist it takes no skill to position against makantor because 80 percent of the time slasher will stay alive for one turn and u can easily move general or slasher to position makantor for perfect play.

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This game is really about who can snowball faster or have more out of hand damage

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