DeathsAdvocate`s Midrange Kaleos

[terrarius]

So far king Onyx is the only one that posts competetive Kaleos-lists.Although they are quite powerfull some may have trouble playing the grinddown game…So i made a much more flashy version.Unfourtanetly im terrible with getting the curve right and following the gameplan all the way through in deckbuilding so i asked DeathsAdvocate to make the list complete. As master of the curve-/drawbalance he turned my flawed version into this powerhouse
He may update his Masterthread,the place everyone that has trouble making decent decks should go to, with this list soon ( DeathsAdvocate’s Master Thread: Unearthed Prophecy )…until than this post should provide all kaleos-interested ones with a more flashy kaleos list.

ps:if someone knows the reason and solution of the lacking sprites could he tell me?the only reason that youre seeing sprites right now is that DeathsAdvocate sent me his imgurupload which was not plagued by this bug.

[pfcmickey]

The lack of dispel/bear turning cards in this deck concerns me. Otherwise, seems solid

[deathsadvocate]

Spiral and the second emp are flex slots, and could certainly be OBS or painter. But EMP does a pretty good job at dispel, as you dont often need it before around that mana point anyways as its a fairly proactive deck.

[owlbeastmd]

Not bad! Curve seems solid, if a little wanting with regards to draw. I agree with the lack of painter, as it does little in this current meta. Several things I take issue with:

Lack of three drops:
Your t1s all have 1 atk, leaving you massively behind if your opponent has tiger. Also, not running panddo in a wall + shidai heavy meta is ridiculous.

Chakri:
A solid card in several builds, though I find its inclusion questionable here, especially due to the absence of jammer. This card only works if you can play multiple threats on a given turn, notably blood rage mask or heart seeker bbs. Since your deck has neither, consider another 2/3 2 drop to improve your t1s.

Thunderhorn:
I’ve tested it multiple times in hai, and consider it inferior to jammer. Pretty sure King had a similar view last time I talked to him (he loves sunsteel as well). Anyway, horn is redundant with flamewreath, and 8/10 times you will play wreath on cores 5-7 due to its immediacy. Therefore, jammer serves a better niche by giving you reliable draw on top of the 5 health with the added bonus of having IF synergy.

Finally, a sample build for reference. As always, take these words with a grain of salt and good luck!

[phoenixtoasches]

Wow, this decklist looks really great! I can’t wait to see what you, @kingw , and many others will be creating for the upcoming expansion! I did have a few questions about your decklist that I was hoping you could answer though.

The first was do truly think fist is better than mystic? I have often found mystic to be extremely helpful mid-game for when I either want to heal a damaged Lantern Fox to full and attack the enemy general for 2 more Phoenix Fires or for Battle Panddo who can be healed to survive a bit longer for more ping damage. The only reason I can find to use fist is because of the extra aggro, but it must be difficult to set it up to the point where this purpose is met.

The second was about your exclusion of Eternity Painter. At the moment I do not have much experience using painter just yet on account of either not drawing him enough or not seeing an opportunity to use him. Do you really think he deserves to be excluded in the current meta? Against walls it seems understandable to defer to Flamewreath, but against Obylske Vet. (excuse my spelling) and cards like desolator, he would be extremely helpful especially considering the fact that you’re decklist does not run much removal.

The last question was, how efficient has been so far to play only one of EMP and Hamon Bladeseeker (assuming you have tested a deck like this)? I can understand the inclusion of the cards themselves as they are both well-rounded and versatile, but is it okay to dilute your deck pool like this?

Feel free to answer any or none of these questions at your leisure and like I said before its a great decklist, I was just curious on certain aspects of it.

[deathsadvocate]

I will never understand peoples obsession with feeding your opponent cards when you have other ways to generate card advantage or just play on curve. I think Spelljammer is terrible here as it defeats the entire purpose of Midrange, its great for a low curve aggro deck, but is really bad for midrange. Between scroll, fox, gotasu, occasional cycle from killing edge, and its medium curve it does quite well for card advantage. I cant tell you how many games I have won because the opponent played spell jammer.

Most decks don’t need three drops as twos are more valuable for early, and four drops are almost immediately playable to and usually better. The exception to this again is low curve aggro decks which this is most definitely not.

Battle Pando does very little to shidai, and I find thunderhorn/flamewreathe to be far superior AOE in decks equipped to abuse them properly. Running a third source is overkill. But perhaps I am underestimating pando and it is better then thunderhorn, but the stateline and abuse potential makes me lean towards thunder instead.

Dude chakri is such a powerhouse, especially when you can play it back thanks to repositioners, if that card isnt answered as your turn one play it can strait up win the game, especially since the deck is fairly spell heavy chalked with respositioners and inner focus.

Your suggested build is pretty awkward, no gotasu is pretty much a crime, its just as vulnerable to tiger, it doesn’t have the same powerhouse cards, and it skimps on some of the decks core cards and just cant seem to decide whether it wants to be aggro or midrange.

@phoenixtoasches

As for running hamon, its a solid option as the second EMP and the Spiral are very much flex slots and could be hamon, OBS, or painter, depending on the meta and personal preference.

[owlbeastmd]

Glad you like it! This is very similar to a deck I ran last month, so again, proceed with circumspection. On to your questions:

1- Mystic is definitely a solid choice. Moreso now than ever in a chip-heavy (notably punish and mantra’s removal suite) meta. However, kaleos’ greatest strength lies in his ability to control trades- when and where they happen- via blink, and fist enables you to get the jump on certain minions despite your own minions having low attack while also developing a body. Notable breakpoints include: fist + jammer/ panddo = 5, fist + scroll = enables 2 drop clear without general hit on t2 jux plays, enabling you to take center, katara + fist = 6 (obelisk clears). I consider these clears + burst potential superior to mystic, as clearing a threat while keeping tempo can often save you more health in the long run anyway. Also, really note the whole “develop a body” part. Kaleos needs bodies more so than reva due to the difference in bbs. A glut of removal has rendered Killing edge too all-in during the t1/2 opening plays, and fist subs in for this buff while also developing board.

2- Like terrarius and death, I don’t include painter because it doesn’t do as much as it used to. 2x for hamon+ emp is definitely viable, but not preferable in my mind. Unlike reva, kaleos cannot poop out a threat on top of painter on 7, making the play too reactive. Kaleos thrives on pressure moreso than other generals, and once he loses it, he generally… well, loses. Also, with the fix to the flawless reflection bug, painter lost a lot of pull in the vanar matchup. Couple this with premium makantor/ slasher kibble, and the poor panda patriarch had to go.

3- Enter hamon and emp. Cycle these guys vs most decks (ergo the flex spots), but they put in work once the opponent has used up 2 of his hard removal - something which often happens when they try to recover lost tempo in the early game/ inability to reach your safely positioned minions(odds are in your favor that they won’t pull a third). Hamon in particular is very strong against lyonar, cass on non-bbs turns, and aggro songhai builds, as neither have any clean answers to it. Emp can also erase wall boards vs vanar, so that’s cool. Zendo synergy also can win you games you had no business winning. In particular, I anticipate a rise in lyonar on ladder to counter mantra lists, hence why I selected hamon as a flex choice. Warning: Cycle both hamon and emp in the early game (most games, actually), and for the love of all things wholesome, NEVER drop a hamon against vanar unless you have no other play.

[owlbeastmd]

Definitely common ground on a couple points. First the disagreements:

Regarding chakri- too much of a card sink in kaleos imo. You’ll blow out many games to be sure, but you’ll lose just as many to removal swing turns because of its all-in lines of play. Lack of jammer or anything in the way of guaranteed draw (to say nothing of no Phoenix fires for your t1 going second!!!) compounds this issue.

Regarding horn: Again, I’ve played a lot with horn in kaleos, and in a situation where you have both, you will almost always play wreath because of its immediacy. Remember, kaleos will often lose if he does not have more than one threat on board at a time, and the turn you play horn is usually a dead turn, especially if you’re behind. Answer or die just doesn’t work anymore.

On jammer, it gives you cards. Sure. But keep in mind you let a 3/5 body live an entire turn before you could even use those cards. You’ve won games because jammer gave you cards. We all have, but how many have you lost by letting that body live? How many more have you lost by the extra card(s) your opponent drew? Watch your replays, and the answer may just surprise you.

Agree with your thoughts on flex spots. Painter isn’t the greatest meta choice with the change to reflection, among other things.

On my deck, you’re probably right about the lack of gotatsu in the sample posted; I’ve been trying to sneaking in 2x for a while haha. Awkward?! Interested in what you consider aggro, but don’t knock till you try. I’ve gotten a pretty solid wr (~70%) with variants of that deck over the past 2-3 months, but I guess everyone has their own style.

Finally, consider revisiting your definition of midrange, especially after seeing the all-in and combo centric nature of your posted deck. I think you’d find it helpful moving forward with your other deck building endeavors. Best of luck!

[deathsadvocate]

I don’t find chakri to be to much of an investment, you don’t have to blow your hand to get good value out of him, you just sort of play your hand normally and usually you end up with like 4/5 statline for a two drop which is pretty incredible. If he gets removed that’s fine, if not you tend to win. Gotasu and fox go a really long way here. You only have to play two spells for him to outvalue primus fist which is pretty easy, and or he forced really early removal. And chakri dying to a turn one tiger is not worse then wasting primus effect turn one.

Oh for sure flame wreathe is by far the best Aoe source for Kal, I mean its pretty much the best card for Kal period. No argument there. Its a question of Pandos meh statline but fairly consistently easy to use effect, or thunderhorns powerhouse body combined with jux or zendo strait up wining games. Hes a really great turn two play and is easy enough to replace if your behind or dont have a way to get good use out of him.

I did mean awkward, and not bad, its a solid deck and I am sure you have played more Kaleos then I have. But its just not quite to the aggressive point I would want to run spell jammer, and its running two ofs in spots I really disapprove of, and of course its missing the gotasu staple. So while powerful, I see some consistency issues. Being somewhere between midrange and aggro does have the advantage of being flexible, but I certainly prefer having a clear gameplan and being able to stick to it.

[terrarius]

Now with shidai out…what do you think about shidai with the same list but 4winds insted of flamewrath?

[eurasianjay]

Shidai is fundamentally not suited to midrange lists. If you were to run her in a minion heavier build I’d either lean towards something like classic spellhai/minmaxer based aggro or a aggressive Arcanyst build.