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Brome, The Warlord [Lyonar Surge Swarm]

Brome, The Warlord

Perfecting Lyonar Surge Swarm

Strategy

So we’ve all been (rightly) talking about how Unbirth and Deceptib0t and Thunderhorn and Flawless Reflection and the entirety of Magmar are way off the charts, so let me be the one to re-state the obvious, but understated. Surgeforger is busted, and it’s busted bad. I actively resent that my favorite Faction has been completely decimated to the point of uselessness save for this one deck, but I can’t find a way around that fact for the time being, and because I don’t enjoy only getting blown out consistently as early as low Gold I quickly spent the Spirit I needed to start playing an early version of this deck. If the other stuff wasn’t so broken people would be lining up to shit on this deck because so far it has been crazy strong to the point that Tempo Lyonar at its apex is a joke compared to the raw “win the match on turn three” power my version of this deck can pump out. So if you want to play the only Lyonar deck that can even approach Tier 1, read on.

The Warlord deck is a swarm deck and similar to the one several others have already posted and discussed. I want to expand on that discussion by not only showing off the deck but talking more deeply about its ins and outs as I see them.

Your win condition is simple: develop an early lead on board, maintain it and buff everything to end matches quickly. You spew out as many cheap minions as you can, and you buff them to insane power levels with Warblade, Empyreal Congregation and the terrifying might of Surgeforger. You refuel your hand with a big Fealty play as soon as you need to (once per match tends to be enough) and Bloodtear Alchemist and Holy Immolation let you deal with things that require an instant answer but your minions can’t reach.

Repulsor Beast deserves its own little paragraph because it. does. work. in this deck. Its stats are acceptable because of all the buffs you’re handing out and trust me: you’re going to appreciate that OG a lot. The obvious application is to get body blockers out of the way but it’s as–if not even more–valuable as pseudo-removal that lets you reliably dispose of back-line threats before they get to do anything.

Notable Exclusions

  • Shiro Puppydragon seems like a natural fit for a swarm deck, but I find it’s effect tends to be too slow and its body not impactful enough. It’s a decent pick but other picks just seem more useful more of the time. I found myself just consistently replacing it when I ran it.
  • Auroara would seem tailor-made for this deck, but I don’t own it and I haven’t tried it out. Watching replays and reading discussions I get the impression that this deck doesn’t need one singular big beater to do well, and denying the opponent one big juice BoA or CC target that hasn’t done anything other than get beefy doesn’t seem worth it, compared to my other options.
  • Vigilator had a spot in my deck until I realized Repulsor Beast’s potential and just stopped playing it. I tried it to deal with Magmar but honestly: Magmar doesn’t leave your board alive long enough for its effect to do significant work anyway. I might try it out again, but I like having only 3-ofs in this deck so far and I wouldn’t know what I’d cut for it.
  • Skywind Glaives is a great card for this deck but after I cut Shiro and Vigilator I realized I was just replacing this card every time. It started seeming like a win-more card and I benefited more from a third Alchemist and Congregation.
  • War Surge is Lyonar’s other big group buff, but it’s only really good when I already have a big board. Congregation puts me over more breaking points and because of Conscript and Fealty I’m running my stuff close to me already anyway, so the global effect isn’t as important.

Key Insights

Now that you’re familiar with the cards and the way they play, let’s get into that deeper insight I was talking about. Some of it is deceptively obvious, in the sense that while you knew about it, you didn’t really know about it, you know?

  • You are the Danger: To win, you need to be the one to force the action. It’s your job to set the pace of the game and your opponent’s to react to what you’re doing. A lot of decks allow for a back and forth between you and your opponent, but this deck requires you to be pushing the action and that demands a shift in mentality. You maintain your board and you clear theirs, that’s how you win.
  • Board Presence > Chip Damage: Some people might think aggressive decks just go face, but this deck absolutely cannot afford to do that. You should find yourself holding attacks back a lot of the time because dealing damage also means taking it, and taking damage means you risk losing your minions. You don’t have a way to come back after your momentum stalls, so you only want to start trading your minions into the enemy General when you feel confident that you’re about to win. Until then, force your opponent to both smash their head into your stuff and spend resources to get rid of your threat. If they succeed, their turn is over and you still have several minions alive. If they fail, even better for you.
  • Positioning is Everything: I’m not joking. This deck requires absolutely masterful levels of placement on your part. It’s amazingly easy to mess up your own access to a certain tile, fail to surround the enemy General for a big finisher, leave them room to escape, or to instead play into common answers (Thunderhorn, Warbird, Grapnel, Betrayal etc). You’ll be spending 80% of many of your turns just thinking about how to avoid screwing yourself over with positioning if you want to do well with this deck.
  • Control the Action: You want to give yourself a lot of things to do each turn, and make it next-to-impossible for your opponent to do anything. If they play minions, you destroy them. If they equip Artifacts, you destroy them. If they want to move, cut them off. Make it as awkward as possible for them to deal with one threat, let alone your entire formation.
  • Know your Enemy: Your deck may be proactive, but your mind needs to be reactive. For every single turn you need to be raking your brain for every possible effective response your opponent might have to your actions. Tailor your attack pattern to suit the opponent. Look at their Faction, General and opening move to determine how best to proceed. Create a spreadsheet with every strong answer they might have at each possible Mana level. Trade in your damage if you’re expecting AspectHorn, buff if you’re expecting Grapnel, refuel if you’re expecting Gates Lightning etc etc etc. There are so many ways for you to mess up your momentum, so play smart and don’t get cocky.
  • Buffing for a Kill: A lot of matches end because you play Warblade or Congregation to buff everything you’ve surrounded the enemy General with. But, because you have a horde of minions, it’s very easy to forget that a buffed minion might survive combat with the enemy General while an unbuffed would not. Don’t automatically reach for that buff before considering whether or not you’ll be able to reach the enemy General at all if some of your minions don’t die off trading face.
  • Don’t Replicate Thrice: Replicant is a great card, but don’t summon the third one if you don’t absolutely need to. Replacing to find something more useful is going to be more beneficial like 90% of the time.
  • Surgeforger is Support: And finally, don’t see Surgeforger as your win condition. It’s amazing and can finish matches by itself but its real strength lies in handing buffs out to your other minions. Treat it as a support unit instead and play it out of enemy reach to try and buff at least two things on the turn you summon it. If the enemy plays removal on it: good. It cost you three mana and they just spent their turn controlling only one of your minions.

There are a number of things I really really love about this deck and some that I really dislike about this deck, either in terms of strengths and weaknesses or just my personal preferences. Let’s call them the Beautiful and the Horrible.

The Beautiful

  • Consistency: This deck is crazy consistent. Between Dreamgazer, Replicant and the absolute majesty that is Fealty you’re virtually always going to draw the cards you need when you need them. Because the curve is so low and because all your cards are 3-ofs you’re extremely likely to get a running start every time and almost anything you draw is going to be conducive to your strategy.
  • Efficiency: Your low, low curve and the ability to consistently hoard (almost) all of the Mana Springs lets you pull off some amazingly unfair turns and spend every last drop of your Mana every time. There are very few “awkward” turns where you can only do one sub-optimal thing at a time.
  • Skill: This is a very high-skill deck to pilot. You need to put a lot of thought, effort and practice in to get good at playing this deck and avoid screwing yourself over without realizing it, and I’m only starting to get into that process now.
  • Power: The deck is just strong. It feels nice to have a chance to win a lot of the time, and there’s something addictive about flooding the board with four minions on turn 1. When you win, you feel like you built up this unstoppable force that’s steadily advancing on the enemy and if you (occasionally) lose you lose hard, in crushing defeat. It’s an enjoyable, binary experience a lot of the time.

The Horrible

  • Board Clears: The right board clear at the right time is devastating to Brome’s company. If you fail to dodge a Plasma Storm or an Eight Gates Ghost Lightning it can really destroy your chances of building up the momentum you need for a victory. Or if your P2T1 gets sabotaged by an early answer like Deceptib0t Protocol.
  • Chasing Runners: Duelyst has a board, and that board can be used to just run away for a few turns. It’s all part of the game but it can be really frustrating to have this gigantic swarm of threats but just fail to connect with anything until you get decimated by Aspect Thunderhorn or Mantra or something similar. Thank Makantor for the Crestfallen because they really help out on that front.
  • Binary Outcomes: One mistake can cost you any match. There are some key windows you need to be able to navigate, and failing to do so well can make your whole house of cards tumble down. It’s very punishing.
  • Few Answers: While not usually a problem there are some instances where you really miss having a dispel or Lasting Judgement handy, and failing to deal with a comeback card leaves you very helpless.
  • Selling your Soul: And finally, this deck is cancer. Playing it makes you a bad person who makes the game worse for everyone who’s just trying to play a fair deck. I lose to a wonderful new Vespyr deck every time with my useless Zeal deck but I just roll over it with this swarm build and I feel bad for punishing someone for playing a good deck that’s actually healthy for the game.

Troubled Matchups

This deck is good at dealing with almost everything aside from Tier 0 Controlmar (but then, what is). If you get your momentum going quickly you’ll beat anything unless you let yourself get punished by Thunderhorn. I complained about Shidai Spellhai before and while the matchup is very tense I’ve won most of those as well.

Please post your thoughts and decklists below, I hope you enjoyed the effort I put into this.

8 Likes

Nice write-up. Very throughout.

How far did it get you in terms of Diamond/S-Rank competitiveness? How does it fair against Rebuke/Storm? In theory it seems as if you might be too quick for Storm and almost all of your minions have more health than attack so a single Rebuke - while crippling - might not be the end of the game. Can you buff yourself out of the hole that Rebuke leaves?

I was always surprised by how few Lyonar swarm decks you see in Diamond/S-Rank. The archetype looks strong enough for me to assume that I might be missing a crucial weakness that holds it back. Lyonar in general feels like the only faction that is sadly absent in S-Rank.

Also: have you tried artifact Brome? Sunbond Pavise (+2 attack and Provoke for Minions above and below your General) seemed very strong against creature decks. Though it might be a bit too fragile for all the different burn decks that are currently in rotation. Or some Titan variation? Bond with the new building? Boy, I miss the days where Lyonar minions could hold their own in a fight.

3 Likes

Thanks for posting. Agree with most of your points: namely this archetype is cancer and it’s kinda sad this is what lyonar has been reduced to (that said, I’m pretty confident the meta will loosen up once rebuke gets capped a bit. Devs can be slow with nerfs, but they generally do come).

I’ll add my list for discussion’s sake:

A little different, and I’ll explain my reasons here:

  • fighting spirit cantrips and gets most of your minions - notably surgeforger - out of rebuke range.

  • shiro. In a play test of 11 games during which time both shiro and lion were played, shiro outdamaged lion, accounting for 6.2 dmg on average over lion’s 3.7 with a much lower standard deviation to boot. Reasons seems to be shiro accrues value by simply being on board, whereas lion needs to hit face to cash in.

  • glaives. Want to end games fast? Run glaives. Enables massive lethals even if only 2-3 minions manage to stick. Ex. 2x zyx and 1x replicant buffed by a surge forger - hardly a highroll- represents 15 damage assuming brome goes face. You’re right: brome needs to end games fast once he gets board, and glaives gets that job done.
    fun screenshot to illustrate my point:

  • auroara. Never got the surgeforger vs auroara argument. Curve is low enough that can run both easily. play around rebuke if you can. That said, if you’re p2, I will generally play auroara + zyx anyway since a t2 rebuke is better than a t2 slasher by far.

Current reasons why I don’t run this deck:

  • mag matchup is pretty rough, since we lost a way around their AOE with the rise of rebuke.

  • assasination protocol songhai. Some random noob has no idea how to play, runs into corner and plays no 2 drops (as a songhai main, I’m insulted by all these midrange decks coming out with 6 or less 2 drops). > I still lose because he plays thunderhorn protected because OUTSKILLED durrrrrrr.

But yeah, deck is a blast to play, and while unhealthy for the game in the same way many other archetypes are, at the very least it is honest about about its wincon being board based and forcing proper positioning to net wins.

2 Likes

The problem with attack buffs like Shiro, Glaives and such that it makes your minions die to rebuke. It’s strange to see you have fighting spirit to get out of rebuke range while also using these. And while glaives are kinda OK - they can be used for sudden lethal - shiro seems counterproductive against Magmar.

Too bad they help to not die to tempest on the other hand :confused:

Just my 5 cents.

2 Likes

Thanks for the feedback. Wish I had a better answer, but this is the meta we live in :(. As I said previously, if you want to beat mag consistently, don’t play swarm lol.

Tech all you want, but the deck will never have a favorable matchup vs current mag, but it can do what it does better so you can win against the matchups which are even or in your favor. Fighting spirit represents a compromise on this end, making your guys just a little more resistant to rebuke while also helping you in other matchups like mantra and vetruvian.

A good portion of the deck’s minions have a 1/4 or 1/5 statline, at which point shiro can be on board several turns before rebuke becomes an issue. If you want surge forger with fighting spirit to live, it’s not that hard to position around the shiro buff (though you are left with a 2/3 swarm buffer even if they rebuke). Finally, the nature of swarm is to play through aoe and force the opponent on the reactive. As I said in my previous post, I’d rather play into rebuke than allow them to develop a lasher any day simply because it’s easier to rebuild an empty board than fight for an occupied one.

2 Likes

Imo Lyonar has much better decks available than Swarm. Both Midrange/Bond Lyonar and Titan are vastly superior imo and less all in compared to this deck.

3 Likes

Good point on titan, though I’d argue bond gets outcurved by most decks you’ll see on ladder.

1 Like

You didn’t post your Aggro Abyss decklist before, how about doing them all now? @isbee & @galaxydueler, you liked the post, does that mean you agree and can give example decklists?

I’ve tried a lot of Bond and never managed to get anything to stick. I’d like to see how these decks perform better than a Surge list.

Are you playing any of those decks yourself? What is your level of experience with Lyonar? Maybe I can add you and see some of your replays? Or you can share those replays here? Looking at Diamond and S-Rank right now there is exactly one person playing Lyonar, and it’s a Healyonar deck.

We discussed the swarm deck in the client so I’ll leave that part for now. What is Artifact Brome? How is it supposed to work? I haven’t seen anyone suggest it before and my experience with Artifacts has been very poor since IV. I don’t own the Titans. I haven’t tried Vigilator in a Bond deck but it sounds plausible at least. The issue is getting anything to stick long enough to actually benefit from any buff.

I like Fighting Spirit but what would you cut for it? I don’t like getting a Battle Pet but that’s what replacing is for. On Shiro: it’s funny that you mention Azurite Lion because I’ve actually noticed I’m not getting nearly as much mileage out of it as I would expect. It often feels like one of the weaker plays I can make, outside of P1T1. Glaives is just a good card for the deck and I might trial it again. I tend to find it difficult to hold onto as I reduce my hand to dominate the board. Maybe it’s just a play style thing.

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Cannot speak for your play style, but glaives is generally something cycled. 80% of the time, It’s just an amazing topdeck. However, there is merit to holding it if you have 3 minions on board and your opponent has less than 20 health

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I don’t have any decklists, no…but I do think there is more than one good build for every faction.

That’s great, but what are you basing that on? Any recommendations on players I should be watching for to see these other decks in action some time? Baharoth hasn’t been very forthcoming with actual decklists and/or examples so far but maybe you can help me until they get around to that?

:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
Let me clarify. I believe there are multiple good builds that will get the job done. One must also consider the division…and general skill, collection size, and luck. Great builds are indeed possible…but I think those decks are deemed to be great relative to the meta (or what it seems to be). There has been more than enough discussion about viable builds over the past few months.

I don’t watch enough games to give you any more examples.

I also liked your original post…along with the post in which he quoted you. I think you both have valid opinions. I know you are very supportive of your arguments when you post, which I appreciate. I generally don’t have the patience to make long posts, because I am very lazy and don’t usually want to repeat sentiments I agree with that have already been expressed.

:smile: I look forward to seeing what’s next from you.

2 Likes

The reason you rarely find me post my own decklists is that i don’t really like doing that for several reasons. Especially when it comes to lists that i’ve spend days or even weeks to perfect. Posted a freshly made list in the Vet topic and literally regreted it a few days later.

However i can give you what i would consider the core of the deck

The rest depends on the meta in your division, personal preference and the General you want to run this list with. Brome and Argeon work best but even Ziran has her perks for a list like this. Important to note about this deck is that it’s not really a Bond deck, it has Bond in it so you can finish games with it when you have the chance, but that won’t happen all that often. It’s a midrange/control list that aims to dominate the board and win from there.

Between Lightbender and Magesworn you have very efficient tech against most of the meta, the first is excellent to deal with Vaath and walls while the latter deletes Songhai, Abyss and Vanar from the game, especially with one or even two Judicators covering him. Haven’t had too many matches against the new Vaath so far but i don’t expect too many problems. Pretty much all your minions dodge Rebuke, Lavaslasher and Makantor, you have fat provokes and dispel to keep Vaath at bay the only thing you have to watch out for is Plasma which you can dodge using Argeon. With your curve basically ending at 6 mana Finality is just a minior nuissance.

I’ve played 2 different versions of this deck, one with Brome and one with Argeon a lot during the last weeks/months and from my experience the deck is incredibly solid. Your minions in pretty much every manaslot are among the best in the game, backed up with good utility from Holy Immo and Trinity as well as techcards like Bender and Magesworn.

2 Likes

Only saw it once in the S-Rank watch feed. It played plenty of small/OG minions and relied on Brome’s BBS and the new artifact Sunbond Pavise (minions above and below your General gain +2 Attack and Provoke) to protect its other artifacts: namely Dawn’s Eye and some other pay-off artifact like Regalia or Bulwark. Looked pretty strong against minion based decks, but might struggle against non-minion based decks and/or when it doesn’t draw the Pavise to protect itself.

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If you want a titan list this is what I’m playing atm. It could probably be better but it wins so good enough. The reason for not playing cards like say surgeforger is probably because I don’t own them.

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Fair enough, I didn’t know how else I could read the liking of a comment with nothing other than an assertion other than as agreement, but I was wrong to presume. I was hoping you’d have some insight to help me diversify. I most definitely wasn’t playing at some kind of politics on your part.

I can understand that, I appreciate you bending your principle to support your argument here. It’s difficult for me to interpret “just trust me on this” as anything other than a cop-out to avoid supporting a position but I can definitely see how you might regret sharing the information.

It looks like quite a nice and beefy foundation, I expect Lightbender does a lót of work with the grindy kind of play style I’d expect this to have. How do you fare against Controlmar at this point (assuming you played this some more), and do you run into trouble with Egg and/or swarm lists at all? I don’t see any ranged components, hence the question. I don’t have Magesworn but I have the rest so I can try it out and see how it performs. Thank you for sharing, I hope to have the same experience you have. I sent you a buddy request in the client, I hope you accept it so I can snoop some of your replays.
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So like a semi-swarm list? I like Pavise, but I have a really hard time imagining it in action. I’ll mull it over, or maybe you could dig up what you remember.

That’s a good reason to not play Surgeforger :stuck_out_tongue:. At what rank are you playing this? Really interesting to see a swarm build morph into a late-game Titan deck.

Misc

I’ve been looking at the Gold, Diamond and S-Rank ladders for the past two days and have literally not been able to find anyone playing Titan or Swarm but I have found a handful of people trying Heal and mid-range. Mostly I just don’t see anyone (other than Kevin) playing Lyonar at all, not a lot of Abyssian around either. I worked up the courage to try this mid-range Heal build out for the first time at Diamond 4 against a weird Banglehai deck that ended in victory. Sunstrike really pulled through for me.

1 Like

I don’t have practical experience with the Lyonar decks against the current Finality Vaath builds yet. The expansion is still young and during the last week i focused on decks that had to be remade due to the nerfs (like aggro cass) and new builds like my Sabotage Vet. What I’ve been writing up there is mostly based on my experience against Vaath with other decks.

1 Like

Last Time I checked S15

Pretty good, Mirkblood Devourer seems like a decent stand-in anyway.