Duelyst Forums

This is a rant thread! (about highlander)

#7

I still think wanderer is fine. Its basically a tempo deck that has to keep board until it can pump out wanderer, and when it falls behind it really falls behind. The reason why everyone says it is highroll is because while it is relatively consistent due to the neutral options allowed it, it still is not as consistent as a non highlander deck, ending up in the inevitable questions “do I have the right answer?” “Do I have the good tempo turn?” Without the answer to both of these being yes, the game gets much harder for wanderer.

The reason why it may hurt to lose to is because when wanderer wins it generally wins hard because it has no powerful single win condition to run you over, but rather it slowly snowballs until it steamrolls you because it is a tempo deck with much stickier stats. BUT IT IS SLOW. Or at least it can be. Instead of focusing on whats in the opponents hand, focus on the opponents board. Clearing threats and setting up your own is the way to beat wanderer. Take board early, and it is much harder to lose your own advantage. Clearing board or aggressively focusing on face before wanderer can go off while keeping an eye on the mana tiles is how you win. It is not broken, it just requires the right calls and knowing what the wanderer wants to do NOW.

I rarely call nerfs on anything because in my experiences, there has been a LOT worse that deserved the biggest hammer, or even just slightly worse that ended up being fine and healthy.
Wanderer loses, Ive seen it, Ive beat it, and I dont care about it.
Now apex, that is pretty scary.

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#8

Flash wander turn 2 is definitely slow, and people are debating whether to have 2 flash because it is that inconsistent and slow. Reva cannot ramp, and also has one of the most talked about Wanderer decks. 6 mana is neither a lot nor far off.

Every deck can lose. Where was the last “any one can literally play this to S. Perfect win rate guaranteed” deck? I missed it.

Wanderer decks take an archetype and usually the win condition(s) therein is also taken, just as 1 ofs, so they can play into multiple scenarios that could set up a win based on these picks. It’s not a tempo deck. Tempo is a tactic, midrange is a deck build. it is a midrange deck with late game value and tempo. wanderer gives every minion additional value value and while you can tempo out (like any deck) it is a midrange deck, wanderer being the consistent midrange value threat that needs answered, generates value and can swing tempo. There is no other midrange anymore; wander is the midrange radiant standard, so much so that every play is a guaranteed mixture of value and tempo. You are faster than wanderer and the aggressor (good/better tempo and Aggression), or slower than wander and trying to control them until you can win (good/better value and Stall/removal). Other midrange decks will attempt to match tempo or out tempo Wanderer (usually needing to take the aggression), until wanderer drops, and then its consistency vs concoction. This is why wanderer is so ragged on: if your curve stops between 5-7 (midrange) you likely don’t have the value or tempo to keep up, and your consistency betrays you (revealing your deck and possible strategy) more than their “luck” or concoction (drawing answers and synergy) because of the redundancy and measures taken to relieve the burden of 1 ofs.

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#9

First, dont be so picky on wording, midtange and tempo are nigh interchangeable in this scenario.
If I wanted to be a smartass, I could point out that tempo is a strategy, because it is a plan of action to take in a certain event. (IE. this matchup needs me to make more tempo plays, thats my plan, because I need to take board or Ill be steamrolled)
A tactic is a thought of a response in case a specific thing happens, not an overall gameplan. (IE. im saving this daemonic lure in case he plays Thorn)
Also, tempo can be used interchangeably with midrange BECAUSE its a gameplan, and thats what a decktype is. Both midrange and tempo mean playing for and holding board presence.

Second, in a meta where accumulonimbus exists and many other strong aggressive decks do as well such as aggro cassy, and combo decks AND basic deci spikes package etc yes wanderer is a slower deck compared to these decks, and even maehve is faster. The reason that sees no play rn is because its bbs plays into its hardest matchups. I specifically mentioned wanderer as a highroller deck so its pretty obvious I addressed flash reincarnation and ramp similar to it. If they have it it becomes a much much harder matchup sure, but you can say the same thing for many other decks (ie accumulonimbus). One copy of a card does not make a more slow deck suddenly an extremely fast one, even 4 copies of a card wont do that. Keeping board is not a walk in the park my friend, and without it wanderer loses.
Wanderers biggest weaknesses are
A.-tending to often want for that last damage push while the control or clmbo player is readying to drop the win con. (AKA often being slow to finish)
B- relying on board heavily
C- being very weak to aggressive decks

When I said I have beat wanderer, of course I know every deck loses. I was simply making a point of how losing to frustrating decks/cards can feel like it makes a deck impossible to beat to some players. I was simply saying wanderer doesnt deserve a nerf, and it is easily beat like other decks.
This is a rant thread, which obviously shows how personal experience causes variables in opinion. You know everyone knew what I was saying, nitpicking to waste my time to type this is more frustrating than lasercats.

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#10

It’s not. Wanderer is not a tempo deck. He generates value and can swing tempo as a midrange threat. Kymera is a value card, bonereaper is a tempo card. Bonereaper can generate value off of high tempo or generate no tempo and be relavitely low value. Kymera can generate tempo by getting value or have no value and lose tempo if it is easily removed.

In the case of wanderer it does both when successful, allowing it to outvalue Aggro with beefed up minions or out tempo Control with buffed minions for lesser cost. In a case where another deck is midrange and wants to control the early game and take the mid game, wanderer will out value and out tempo it. Hence you either have the better tempo and aggress on to the wanderer stopping the drop, maintaing your tempo and keeping them reactive (Obelysk) or remove their threats and go into the late game with your high value (Variax).

I did not say it could not be out aggro’d. I said any deck can lose. But midrange to midrange, wanderer is the standard. In repeated occurrences, wanderer will usually beat any other deck that stops at 5-7 mana. The real arguement here is consistency vs concoction in midrange decks. Wanderer is midrange. I do not think too many other midrange decks can realistically compete with it, in a best out of 3. It has the value and tempo.

As this is a rant thread, this is what I’m getting at. I think it’s ability to out value midrange decks, consistently (since they usually tech against aggro or/and control) and contest control and Aggro decks. I think this causes the rants. Midrange players getting owned.

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#11

Personally I don’t like wanderer because it’s too easy to be played compared to the other mythron cards. Ebon ox, xorxull and oak are hardly summoned at 8 Mana and you have to build your deck around it, same with strategos and Noste (even thou those two are slightly faster) and this guy comes out consistently at 6 Mana or even 4! I think a nerf to 7 Mana is necessary

#12

I think you are confusing people by contradicting yourself here. Lets keep it simple.

Wanderer itself has a value oriented effect: Getting a value advantage with the +1/+1 buff.

Most of the cards that get played in Wanderer decks are tempo: They remove something from the opponent’s board while adding a body to yours. Tempo is about maintaining advantage while stopping/ removing as much of the opponent’s advancements as possible.

In the end you are right. Wanderer decks are about Value oriented Midrange AND Tempo and thereby stomp simple Midrange builds.

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#13

Those cards being rubbish isnt a argument against Wanderer being too good.

Those are just simply awful for the most part. (Oak is p ok tho)

#14

Considering that we have only one mythron card per faction and probably we won’t see more, I would expect those cards beeing on the same powerlevel. That’s my hope

#15

Depowering Wanderer won’t make said card see more play if they weren’t good enough to see play anyway is my point. I’m all for cards being brought up to par but you’re going about it backwards.

But I agree, those other Mythrons are all either underpowered or disappointing in their own ways and could have a look at, either via numbers or more eventual support.

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#16

Wanderer decks are just an example of value-oriented decks which basically pushed fair midrange decks out of the meta. Other Trials have the same design issue, but Wanderer is particularly annoying because it’s the most competitive one.

At the moment, the game plays around two classes of “degenerate” decks:

  • insane value-oriented decks enabled by Trials
  • aggro decks which kill the opponent before such value is generated

Either experience feels cheesy and is not particularly appealing to me, which is the reason why I’m having a temporary break. I used to enjoy a game where decisions mattered a lot, even in short games, to the point that any “reasonable” deck I had in mind used to somewhat work on ladder. With the latest two expansions, Duelyst has more and more moved out from this state and now it feels more HS-esque than ever.

Since it’s a rant thread, I wanted to include my personal rant :wink: but I hope that better times will come. I’ve spent enough time on Duelyst and I had enough fun with it that I only hope for a bright future for this game. Hopefully, the devs will realize that something was wrong with the last two expansions and especially with the last one…

#17

Roger isn’t pleased.
Don’t touch it.

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#18

I can agree with you when it comes to ToM(even thou the only problematic aggro card that I see is accumulonimbus) but…what’s the problem with IV?

#19

In my opinion there should be Tournaments that don’t allow Mythrons… easy.

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#20

I get really frustrated by Wanderer decks, but I think I have an unfair memory bank of the times I’ve won the matchup vs. the times I’ve lost the matchup.

I think to resolve this I’m going to start keeping records and stats of every wanderer deck I play against. In a month or so I’ll post some statistics, and we can use those to put these arguments in context.

Right now there’s a lot of anecdotal rage and “I can beat that all the time” pissing contests. While rant threads aren’t usually productive, I do feel like there’s legitimate community ire around this card.

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#21

I don’t want to hijack the thread, so I will be brief. I will be happy to discuss this more in detail privately or in a separate thread.

IV was not a bad expansion, but it was nowhere near to UP or even Shimzar. UP brought to the game many positioning effects, which was exactly what the game needed at that point. Also Sentinels were an intriguing addition to the game despite a few bugs.

Conversely, IV brought:

  1. Mechs
  2. Build
  3. New generals

1 and 2 were a complete failure and basically never saw play. About 3, I’m not quite sure it was a healthy addition to the game - the card pool already has troubles at supporting 12 generals, let alone 18.

I don’t want to be overly critical, but I found IV rather uninspired and ToM has these big design flaws which drave me a bit out of the game…

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#22

Well I agree 100%, expetially your UP thoughts. Personally I think the problem is not mythron cards as a concept, it’s what happen when those cards can hit the board consistently at 4/5/6 Mana, generating that insane value and killing any other midrange deck. To be objective all mythrons bar wanderer don’t have this problem. So I think a nerf to those two cards (wanderer and accumulonimbus) would bring back the game in a healthy state

#23

I agree. ToM would be much more stable and fun without the Mythrons. The problem with Accumulonimbus is that it is really hard to nerf, while there is one needed. The rest of the set actually has some good new concepts. I like at least one epic of each faction ( Standard, Bakezori, Obdurator/Canopic, Crown, Induction and Charm, Wisp, Chirpurka) and most of the intensify cards (exept Accu) there are also some positional effects.

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#24

What if you wanted to win against wanderer,
But then god said,
Despacito.

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#25

You mean go slower? You crazy?

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#26

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