Duelyst Forums

Old Vanar was fun. New Vanar is not

#60

I find all the fuss about Vanar kind of entertaining. People have often complained that the game was better during the beta. Well, here’s a fossilized beta deck resurrected and placed in today’s meta.

To me, Disruption Faie is the closest deck to Control Magmar that we have ever gotten. It has enough Global AOE and single target removal to make the opponent hesitate before committing to the board, just like the old Magmar. It has unfair ramp to get their big drops as fast as possible, just like old Magmar. It even draws more than one card per turn, like 2 draw Magmar. Playing / playing against this deck feels remarkable similar to the old control Magmar. However, having a “2 draw” deck in a game where everyone else plays 1 draw decks is a bit unfair. Nonetheless, it feels pretty nostalgic to play games where you are forced to conserve threats to play around AOE.

The best part about this situation is that it proves that most players clearly do not want to return to 2 draw Duelyst. I always looked at the 2 draw game through rose tinted glasses and now that the game has similar decks, I feel that 2 draw is not what most nostalgists make it out to be.

6 Likes
#61

I may sound a bit too harsh and negative, but the final statement that I reached after 6 months of playing the game is the following: way too much removal, and way too easy to accomplish.

The first part of the statement is quite obvious; I mean, we even have neutrals that give you fairly strong removal or dispel. One could say it is like this to balance the various factions. In the end, they’re just used if said faction doesn’t have any sort of way to deal with something (e.g. pre-AB Vetruvian using Crossbones). The result is a broad flattening of the differences between the factions’ playstyles, which is always bad.

The second part is related to the fact that often in Duelyst hard and soft removal is unconditional. No positioning requirements, no attack or damage thresholds. I admit there’s also a lot of well designed cards though, with reasonable conditions to be played: Plasma Storm, Crossbones and Enthropic Decay, just to name some of them.

The point is, Vanar is the embodiment of this problem. Before the last expansion thiis was counterbalanced by their poor draw ability (even if you could still run Spelljammer, you know ;)). Now this drawback, thanks to a ludicrous card like Circulus, is almost completely gone. Which IS a problem, same as before Ancient Bonds with Lyonar’s Trinity Oath (which is, by the way, still pretty broken).

A little thought a little out of the main discussion of this thread: the problem with this overwelming number of unconditional removal also brought to life stupidly OP cards. Because, you know, why not making OP cards if they just become useless with cheap soft/hard removal?

Sorry for the lengthy post, not a rant in any way, just my thought on the current state of the game as well as Vanar.

5 Likes
#62

Like what gets not fun for me is facing the exact same Vanar deck 12 times in a row on ladder like I just did. It sucks and is boring.

3 Likes
#63

Well like you said, having a control deck playing in “2 draw” while others playing in 1 draw is not balanced. Also, Control mag actually had to commit to their removal, both in terms of positioning, cost, and requirement. Minus old Mana Burn (chromatic cold), all of magmar removals have hard requiment: Nat Selection and Storm(which was 4 mana) require specific atk point which can be play around; Egg morph(4mana) and metamorph(5, now 6 mana) require minions/general to be nearby to be actuall removal, and only last 1 turn. You have to consider what removals to put in when building a deck due to their hard conditions: minion centric mag would play at most 2 Selection if any; Plasma Storm for a long time after 1 draw change was never main deck.

Compare to Vanar, aspect and enfeeble both has unlimited range, is permanent, has no requirement whatsoever with minimal downsides; Frigid corona is a stun that cycles (no card disadvantage) and can target general; Chromatic Cold is the strongest dispell in the game, in relation of cost and power. CC is so strong that after it was moved from magmar to vanar, control mag disappeared (along with other nerfs to aoe, so not only CC at fault) and vanar jumped from shitty to being competitively viable.

Vanar removals is so good that the first thing you put in any vanar decks is removals, whatever the deck is. CC, aspec of the fox, pre-nerf Cryo, enfeeble, corona if you want, new expansion we have deathgrip. Thats at least 12-15 removals right there, and everyone want to put all in their decks, because they are all unconditional, unlimited range, permanent effect removals.\

Edited

10 Likes
#64

Deathgrip in combination with Meltdown is particularly egregious.

1 Like
#65

This tilts me to no end. A transformation that lasts 2 turns that costs 3 mana more is bullshit. It should have stayed as 5 mana. Enfeeble should either last the turn it’s played or cost 2 mana more.

I don’t understand CPG idiocy by reintroducing skorn or frostburn + 1/1 minions mana boardwipe a second fucking time.

1 Like
Let's Discuss 'Playing Around Removal'
#66

Yeah when I saw enfeeble for the first time I was like: “There gonna be a patch down the line where Metamorph is permanent, if this is what Vanar getting”

#67

Yeah I kinda don’t get the whole “this proves people don’t want 2 draw duelyst” thing. In 2 draw every deck drew 2 cards and that’s an important distinction. I’d file most of the Faie complaints under “angry about FotM OP decks”. Sure, there are a number of people saying this one is different with comments like “I played through X,Y, and Z metas and hate this one the most” but I’ve seen those comments before and I’m not convinced that we couldn’t fix most of the feel-bad problem by just deleting meltdown. Sure Faie has other OP stuff but there will always be OP stuff, I’d rather that they first did something about the OP stuff that also has ridiculous RNG.

#68

Yet magmar got shit ton of great minions, broken rush staple, a support for each infaction tribe.
A crazy finisher.
infaction crazy heal.
Crazy aoe.
Alot of removels.
And a jugg.

Should i go on? All the things that vanar doesn’t have.
Vanar has to rely on spells and strong removels.
Otherwise there’s no way to take on these big no brainer factions like magmar or lyonar

#69

Do you know what else can “clear” Aymara?

Repulsor beast.

You can also shroud and then flat out kill it…

And then dump 3 alcuins and be damage immune for the rest of the game…

#70

Remember pre-Shimzar mag? Worst faction in the game along side Vet. If Storm, Natural Selection, Egg Morph, Earth sphere, Metamorph, Elucidator and Freaking Makantor was so good, why the **** would magmar be so bad back then? All of their removals, and minions has hard condition, costly and has actual drawbacks that hurt their own minion. And thats why Magmar got thumping wave. Everyone didnt like how conditional Magmar’s “strong” removals were, so the devs said “Lets give Magmar versatility: give them draws, give them burst, give them range removals, all in 2 cards” and that made them cancerous.

The same goes for vanar, but in reverse: overtuned single removals, suck ass minions, no real wincon, no board clear effect, and most importantly no draws. Now they have the best board clear in the game, the best ramp in the game, a 2 drop that give card advantage for simply playing spells (which sounds so much like what a songhai card should do), the best faction to abuse meltdown, a Smorc BBS because wincon, embla to make a board (also wincon), Seraphim to OTK your enemy in case all of the above is not enough.

The day when vanar had only bad minions (compare to other faction) has long passed. Infact their minions are quite decent, but the problem is that they are all designed for 2 draws and most Vanar player dont even bother with their in-faction minions and cling onto their precious removal. Snow chaser is good, crystal cloaker is good, razor back is good, hearth sister is good, sleet dasher is good, … but they only fit in a tempo base playstyle, which 2 draw supported, most vanar players just accepted that those minions are bad.

About Magmar and Lyonar is brain dead faction: Sorry we have to be that way to keep up with Vanar removals

3 Likes
#71

Its about vanar getting a card advantage genarator - Circulus. Before it, vanar players had to either be conservative with their removals (which are plenty) or play card draws (blazhound, spell jammer,…) and never have the card advantage. Circulus give Vanar the ability to generate card advantage for simply playing cheap removals, which in my mind is bad design. You should never be gaining tempo and card advantage with 0 drawbacks

1 Like
#72

To be fair, you have a drawback: those illusions you are replacing pollute your deck and you don’t want to draw them in the late game. Circulus is strong, but not bad designed

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#73

If one could go long enough for that to be a problem then I guess whoever won that game deserve it

2 Likes
#74

Repulsorbeast isn’t really a thing in Vanar. In aggro faie maybe but nobody plays that atm. Shroud + kill it sounds easy but you either need a Snowpiercer (again not used outside of aggro faie) or at least one minion to trade into it along with your general. That’s using 2 cards to deal with 1 and you still get life from it. Honestly if my Vanar opponent has to do something like that chances are he is about to lose.

Being able to play 3 Alcuins requires to draw them, means there is quite a lot of luck involved here, and even then, dispel is a thing. Betting everything on shroud protection can backfire badly.

#75

Meltdown. There is no late game.

#76

I’m not sure why people compare Duelyst to MTG/YGO or even HS, there’s a slight difference between this game and other CCGs - it has a board. Yes, 9x5 tiles on which you can position your minions and move them around more or less tactically. AoE removal makes this aspect totally irrelevant when your minions don’t get to move the entire game because they’re either dead or frozen.

Well, if you prefer a 3/3 over Aymara or in Gauntlet Dragonbone Golem…

Great, you can use the 3 remaining useless 1/1s (because those with aura effect were pinged and those with DW CCd) to deal 3 face damage! Assuming they’re even in reach…

Wot? First of all that’s wrong, because it kills some targets, including generals that are low on health. Secondly, I think it has more than enough functionalities and usages to be considered one of the best single removal cards in the game, auto-included in all Vanar decks, yet you talk about it as if it was nothing special.

That’s one of problems, yes, but that doesn’t mean excessive amount of removal which makes the Snipedown shootout more likely to happen is ok.

Yeah, trading with 1/1s is so dangerous (unless you’re playing swarm, but noone plays swarm because of Frostburn/Plasma/etc. and no anti-AoE cards like Nerubian egg - that’s what this game design leads too). In some games Warbird alone did more damage to me than I did to Faie with general/minions. Why do you think those decks don’t run heals, even though old acceptable Control Faies did? And even though non-minion burn is the best counter to them?

1 Like
#77

aspect leaves 3/3 on board, would you rather your dragonbone to get punished or turned into a bear?

#78

I don’t think I mentioned anywhere that Punish is healthy removal, did I? Typical deductive fallacy, illicit negative to be exact.

#79

First of all, cards should never take gauntlet as a standard, and using that to justify balance is just stupid.

Secondly, your justification makes minimal sense, especially in the case of enfeeble. 1/1s are significant, especially those with effects, and needing to play a chromatic cold or aspect of the fox on top of enfeeble means you are using another removal on the card. Aspect’s fox is significant because it is bad early and it is outweighed by other cards late game based on its value.

What I’m trying to say is that both these cards play around vanar’s identity, which is not having a good way to completely clear the board. The main issues arise when you throw cards like frostburn in the mix. Frostburn only affects the enemy and doesn’t leave anything behind. Compared to plasma storm, it’s ridiculous, as there’s no risk and it’s not conditional. Similarly, skorn with enfeeble is similar. It clears the board and leaves a 4/4.

Tldr; Vanar’s removals aren’t the problem, as they are their main strength. Their problems lie in having easy card draw in the faction and an unconditional aoe.