With the other factions, it feels like usually I either got outplayed, or I outplayed.
With Songhai it never feels that way- it just feels like luck of the draw, and the luck is rigged in their favor.
Songhai’s excessive draw and undercosted cards are the core of the problem. All their draw cards need to cost +1. All of them. Do that and the faction would probably be balanced. Maybe change mana vortex entirely (or make it cost 1 reduce by 2 but no draw)
I’m not at all reprimanding you for drawing conclusions between cards with parallels; that’s to be expected.
One might say Shadowdancer is better because it doesn’t use up your cards immediately, leaving you with no answers, or say that it uses the opponents board against them, giving even more advantage. Not to mention the fuel Shadowdancer uses synergises with other cards and that cards can provide it with fuel.
I suppose my biggest weakness in discussing this is I have no notion of Songhai’s cycling capabilities. But still, if nothing else, opinions like mine are necessary to provide a contrast to prove that others opinions are right.
By the by, I assume you didn’t mean Four Winds has better stats, but a cheaper cost?
Yes your opinions are necessary because there always two sides on a coin. And yeah, I am comparing the stats because they serve a similar purpose as a midrange minion. I don’t get why is it better stat-ed than a minion that needs more set up and an equal cost.
I think the 4WM ‘not requiring setup’ is not true. In order to get instant value from it, you need to hold specific cards in your hand, if you are holding that phoenix fire in your hand you are not casting it to remove early threats. This can be counted as a kind of setup.
I’d agree more options to disrupt hand setups like mechaz0r, hand vomiting and kara would be nice, though.
I think the only thing I’d like to change with Songhai is inner focus. Probably should be changed to Re-activate minions that already attacked this turn with less than 3 attack. This should prevent songhai to gain pseudo rush minions which makes them extremely lethal and difficult to remove. The other spells are fine as it is.
Those are all almost always run in spellhai. No one said they have instant draw, they where saying they don’t run out, because each turn they usualy get a fresh hand. Also those pull spells, even the worst spell is great for Spellhai…and you can always cycle something that is crap turning it into hard draw. I have not called for nerfs, nor ever said they where unbeatable. I don’t have an issue with other variations of Songhai.
No, this is nothing like blue control decks Vs green creature slamming, that’s just people whining about someone having a different playstyle then them. Thats just control vs aggression and big creatures. People whine about that here to, but it is not a problem at all. In fact control could actually use a boost in general. Spellhai is not control.
Blue is more like control Cass, not a lot of units, plays a long slow games, but her entire mechanic is based on the board! It does have counter play in light bender and to a lesser extent other dispel. And if it’s control rather then aggressive Cass you can rush her down. Yea some people hate the deck, but it at least does use the board so it’s fine.
“What sets this game apart from card games is the board. If it is not utilized then it may as well be a card game, and at that point it’s just another Indy game soon to be forgotten as it can not compete with MTG or hearthstone.”
It is like sitting down to a game of warhamer…and bringing a magic burn deck to play your opponent with. That’s not ok, and completly defeats the purpose of a tactical, unit based, board game.
Let me say it again UNIT, BOARD game! Spellhai doesent use the board, has few units, most of which have 0 interaction. So yes it does indeed go agaisnt the fundamentals of the game.
I think everyone should know this, as I think @thorrk has created one of the best counters to Reva decks! I’ve recently been having troubles with Reva, so I created a Healyonar deck based off of @thorrk’s here, which has really helped against the Reva matchup. This morning, I fought 3 of them in a row, and won all of them because I was able to out-heal their damage while developing board, while they slowly ran out of steam and lost all board presence and pressure. The best part is, the deck was immensly fun for me to play, and I think could give other players a similar type of enjoyment ^^.
Skorn really helps to find targets to heal, and is a great counter as player 2 or player 1 turn 2 against tusk boar openings and to counter heartseekers. Lightbender is an amazing counter to mirror-melded chakri avatars, Foxes, and heartseekers, which has won me a lot of games along with Skorn. I even got a 14/13 Lightbender one game because I was able to get off so much healing 
. Overall, I would really recommend giving Zir’an a try, she seems to be the counter that this meta needs against this aggro meta. Keep in mind that in the 3 games that I’ve played, I never had to use Kron, nor did I need him to win games (although Ironcliff certainly helped slow my enemy down).
Decklist I run:
While I don’t necessarily agree with everything you said, I really like your points, actually.
I feel a better (albeit not perfect as you can’t counter a spell or minion, but you can manipulate its position on the board, for example) comparison for Songhai would be Blue/Red permission and burn decks.
I think the existence of the variation (we’re talking low-minion, almost non-existent direct combat, Spellhai here) isn’t negative. I echo the sentiment of frustration when playing against these decks sometimes (just like I did when playing against land-destruction burn Red in MtG - and believe me, back then I felt the absence of a combat phase was against the fundamentals of the game as well) but overall I think it’s something positive for the game, and embrace future variations in game plan of the sort. I’d consider them a problem if the archetype was overpowered or the game itself devolved into Spellhai versus Spellhai, but I feel that’s not the case. A lot of times everything goes right for a Spellhai deck, other times they lose steam and eventually fizzle.
We’re running in circles here so really let’s end this, I’ve shared my thoughts enough for the discussion =)
About the instant draw yes you didnt mention it, but others did, or implied it so was just to clarify…
It’s just not true that the cards you listed are almost always run (or even other OP cards other mentioned). I personally don’t use inner focus, juxtaposition, saberspine seal, tusk boar
Wickedflux 1st list on manaranks doesn’t use twin strikes / xho /saberspines
J’s list doesnt run twin strikes aswell, and xho neither.
Both lists basically rely on jammer, which is neutral, as main source of draw.
And from personal experience aswell I can tell you that not many runs xho or twin strikes, so the most used cards are mana vortex, which cycles, and heaven’s eclipse.
Oh and btw no one ever runs cyclone mask, and it’s simply not true that every spell is good, you dont know the times I replace mist walk/shadow waltz/koan of horns/artifact defiler and whatnot. Yes every spells can synergize wih your 4winds magi, but playing a crap spell instead of looking for another of your card is simply not worth it. And, while close, is not exactly as a hard draw, with simple draw you are sure you get a “good” card you put in your deck leaving more choice on the card you want to replace, while if you pull a crap card from xho you are “forced” to waste your replace on that card.
About MTG the goal wasnt to make an example that 100% matches, ofc they are different games, both having UNITS and BOARDS (yes it’s not a grid, but still you have units to attack the opponent, and if he has units aswell he can block them so it’s a main aspect of the game, with spells you ignore it going for face damage).
Anyway, hope you guys can constructively continue the discussion as every comment on game aspect is healthy for it =) but now i’m out,
peace =)
I think the problem isn’t just cheap cycle. It is also how cheap the spells themselves are.
Look at those lists. 20-30% of the deck costs 0 mana. No other faction has this. And some of those spells have potent effects.
I think the basic character of Songhai is fine, but it needs to be “paced” a little bit and a good way would be putting a cost on some of those 0-cost spells. Not Mana Vortex, but Jux and IF? Definitely. IF is way too good to be a 0 cost spell.
More generally, I think what we are seeing with Songhai is really a symptom of a larger problem: aggro and direct damage are far stronger than control right now. Hopefully CPG knows this and is working on it.
This is awesome to see! I was just about to respond to this topic and say healing really can screw up a Songhai’s day, then you posted this! Nice!
I do not know who said Songhai is like Blue or Blue/Green MTG decks, because it is not. It is a burn (Red) deck. While I agree with you on that sentiment, I cannot get behind a couple of these other claims:
Not true. I’ve played many a Songhai games where I have to pass while sitting on a jux or IF without a board. Which leads to next claim:
Again, not true. A lot of the cards are conditional. Jux isn’t great when your board is empty. IF is useless with just a magi, etc. There have been countless times I did not draw a useful spell and lost because of it. After reading so many of these types of posts this month (Sept into Oct), I’ve come to the conclusion that what people really hate is losing when they feel like they’re winning.
For example, you are playing a standard Argeon midrange deck against Songhai. You have complete control of the board, Songhai hasn’t a minion and you’ve locked them down with a provoke. Unfortunately, they’ve got you low on health, though, only 10 HP left. The Songhai player plays Mask, BBS, jux, phoenix, phoenix and you lose. That’s a tough pill to swallow when you felt you were so far ahead.
I’ve played that game from the other angle too. I prioritized healing and backed Songhai into a corner where I dropped two provokes next to him. He conceded before the next draw. Songhai is annoying to play against, but with experience (maybe even playing it yourself), you can get an idea of how that deck is played.
I think akurane’s list in this thread is a great example of playing against Songhai meta. Dispel + healing + provoke = upset Songhai players 
Oh I know they can be beat, I have not been nerf crying, and I know they can often have awful draws or run out of steam because they do not get enough draw.
The thing is they fairly consistently do exactly what I am describing, which leads to a very negative experience, and what you pointed out loosing when you probably should have won, is that lack of interaction I am talking about. There is just nothing you can do about that play, and that’s the issue.
On the flip side before recently spellhai was not quite as consistent, so back then it was feast or famine. Big swings, over the top rng, and win or loose based solely on draws rather then skill is really bad for a competitive game. It’s that exact stuff which has sent so many hearthstone players our way. Now people are concerned because they are starting to see it here.
As for IF, that’s why the thread is pointed at Reva, since she always has a minion to use it on. It also turns something like chakri from a very balanced card into a huge swing, and its existence means they can’t release many more cool things like chakri as they have to design around it.
Every deck has its good and bad match ups. Reva just seems to have the least of them, mainly heal based Lyonar. Yea, healing and pressure counter spell hai. It’s why I started running a playset of Earth Spheres in Magmar, and forcing in blade and dancer/sister into abyss decks I would not otherwise run them in. Because the moment I see Kara I know if I don’t manage to draw my healing I almost certainly will loose.
Running/releasing new counters to specific problem decks is fine, that’s not the issue here. It’s that lack of interaction. If they moved the out of hand damage from spellhai into upping offensive stats and capitalizing on their other mechanics all would be well even if they where still the tier one deck, because then it would be interactive and use the grid. (Going to start saying grid, since as it was pointed out card games sort of have a board to.)
Reva not Kara right? 
Yea my bad. Will edit. Kara while her Bbs may be a little strong right now, I don’t have a huge issue with because, cats aside, she is purely minion based and quite interactive.
Having non minion focused tactics is fine, but they need to make use of the grid and or be interactive.
even provoke isn’t that big a deal for songhai now due to juxtaposition, pando, and killing edge.
But ziran still has issues vs midrange and control decks because it is slower and does not have that a strong of a presence when compared to midrange decks, and lack the overwhelming late game that control decks have.
I think heal lyonar is cool and wna try it out myself when I get the spirit and the archetype gets more cards.
But yeah, this deck is great vs aggro but not as amazing vs midrange/ control decks which is currently running around on the ladder with songhai in the mix. It’s like 1/3 of midrange, control and aggro on the ladder now.
As someone who hit S last month with a 3xCyclone Mask list and well on his way to doing it again this season, your statement is factually incorrect.
I also don’t run Juxtaposition, or Fox, or Inner Focus so to me it looks like this thread is more a Spellhai bashing circlejerk as opposed to legitimate discussion on the Songhai faction as a whole.
As a Songhai main with a modest by S standards 600+ wins with the faction, the gameplay is a whole lot more interactive from the other side of the isle.
Or maybe it’s just me.
I don’t know what kind of legit discussion people are hoping to have. All the key points have already been brought up, go back and read them. Regardless how narrow minded some of us might be being, we’ve put enough thought into it to post about it on the forums.
This is a game. And if some aspect of it is draining the fun out for us, we’re going to complain.
It’s not real life, Songhai isn’t the dentist, you can’t convince me Songhai is good for me, Dad.
