First Thoughts on Ironcliffe Heart

[eldynamite]

Hi,

Earlier today, a PCGamer article revealed several new cards. One of these cards was Ironcliffe Heart.

They also noted that Divine Bond would be changed to 3 mana.

While I like the new card, I don’t see how it can be put in the same faction as Divine Bond balance-wise.

With this change, any unexhausted minion-- even Panddos-- could be transformed into 13/10 Rush Provokes for 7 mana and 2 cards.

One of the greatest limiting factors of Lyonar as a faction is that Divine Bond doesn’t effectively deal damage without first giving your opponent time to respond to the one big threat you dropped last turn. The current iteration of Divine Bond is lackluster unless used on a high-cost minion, generally 5 or higher. Dropping such a minion requires a whole turn, and thus gives your opponent a chance to cheaply remove it and then gain tempo with other moves. This is a critical balancing factor for Lyonar as a faction-- in exchange for the best board-abusing spell in the game, they lack the out-of-hand damage of other factions.

Ironcliffe Heart changes this. Not only do they now have the best board-abusing spell in the game, they now also have the best (pseudo) out-of-hand damage of any faction. If literally any of Lyonar’s minions survive on the board after 7 mana-- not a difficult task with Phalanx and the swarm of 1-mana minions that exist in the game-- then Ironcliffe Heart + Divine Bond gives a 13/10 Rush Provoke for 7 mana. To put it in different words, if you leave a Bloodtear within range of your general, or Lyonar summons a Dragonlark you can’t reach, you will lose the game immediately.

Given the absolutely ridiculous nature of this combo, I can only hope that Divine Bond will be changed heavily for Shim’zar. (No, changing Divine Bond to Inner Fire will not fix this.) A wincon of “have any minion survive after 7 mana” is fundamentally broken in any class, and I pray that the devs aren’t planning to let a gamebreaking combo like Ironcliffe Heart + Divine Bond ever see the light of day.

Then again, they didn’t see Songweaver + Sunsteel coming, so I’m not holding my breath. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[thefirstgokun]

My first thought seeing this was “Okay, I need to make a working deck with 12-15 Ironcliffes.”

x3 Ironcliffe Guardian

x3 Ironcliffe Heart

x3 Alcuin Loremaster

x3 Twilight Sorcerer

x3 Keeper of the Vale

All systems go for maximum cheese.

[raqyee]

New combo: requires a minion on the board, 1x bond and 1x heart, 7 mana, 13 damage.

Current combo: requires a minion on the board, 2x bond, 6 mana, also fuck ton of damage.

You’re overreacting.

[ZyX]

With this change, any unexhausted minion-- even Panddos-- could be transformed into 13/10 Rush Provokes for 7 mana and 2 cards.

Ah yes. Out-of-hand damage that requires a minion pre-placed on the board. So damage much out of hand.

aka 7 mana - 2 cards and a minion - three cards. 3 cards for 13 damage. Bounded Lifeforce can do that and better for one card.

If literally any of Lyonar’s minions survive on the board after 7 mana-- not a difficult task with Phalanx

Sure - I too like to make my lethal combos based on playing an 8 mana card before playing a 2 card 7 mana combo.

1-mana minions that exist in the game-- then Ironcliffe Heart + Divine Bond gives a 13/10 Rush Provoke for 7 mana.

Rush - I like the use of Rush in that statement. This is the same limiter as you’ve always had for Bond - remove minions, and Lyonar has no comeback - Holy Immo needs minions, Bond needs minions. Nothing has changed. Well, bond got costlier, so I guess something did change. Rush is what Revenants, Makantors and Tigers have. I imagine you call Aspect of the Fox broken too, since it can deal 3 dmg out of a BLoodtear body - the same, incidentally, as this card in terms of damage without buffs.

Given the absolutely ridiculous nature of this combo

Vaath casually deals 13 + dmg. Kara can deal more cumulative dmg with 6 mana given the circumstances (and these circumstances have been proven time and again to not be that demanding). Current Nova AND future Obliterate will do more for comparable cost, and area-effect in both cases.

A wincon of “have any minion survive after 7 mana” is fundamentally broken in any class,

How about hmmm reaching 7 mana. Aggro Vaath, Mid range Kara, most versions of Songhai, and even current Lyonar builds finish at or before 7 mana regularly.

To put it in different words, if you leave a Bloodtear within range of your general, or Lyonar summons a Dragonlark you can’t reach, you will lose the game immediately.

Yea, I also want to play this mythical game in which you draw 2 cards as a buy-1-get-1-free package, draw Ironcliffe Heart get Divine Bond free, and meanwhile hold on to a 4 mana spell and a 3 mana spell both of which require targets in hand waiting for the enemy to gift you a minion to play it on.

I feel like you used the words ‘absolutely ridiculous’ to describe the average combo you presented, and then use Dragonlark as the breaking factor. I too would like to learn the art of hyperbole from such an experienced and masterful practitioner of the art. This is impressive stuff, and truly drives home the fact that this, indeed, is a game-destroying combo.

(I dislike the very concept of Divine Bond - but this is an amazingly myopic opinion piece you have provided so I felt it necessary to respond at length.)

[attheedge]

I don’t like this card. It’s just another card that heavily supports the only real win condition instead of creating new ones.

[martinsilenus]

I do agree on the overreacting part. But the thing is that now lyonar will not only be able to punish you for not answering their big threats. Now they will punish you for not answering everything they play.

Currently, playing against Lyonar is a “Do I run out of answers before they set up DB?” roullette. And this card makes the situation worse. I just think this playstyle is dumb and Lyonar needs more diversity, not more shit to play DB on.

[eldynamite]

Using 2x Divine Bond on a Bloodtear gives you 4 damage and kills the Bloodtear.

Using Ironcliffe Heart -> Divine Bond on a Bloodtear gives you 13 damage and a 13/8 Provoke.

The difference is that the current iteration of Divine Bond is not abuseable on all cards. You need, generally speaking, either a Celerity minion or a high-HP minion. Using Divine Bond on a Windblade Adept, as a more moderate example, is still a waste, but using Heart + Divine Bond on anything gives you 13 damage and a 13/8 Provoke.

i.e. The benefits of using current Divine Bond depends on what minions you have. Heart + Bond does not, it just requires any minion to win the game.

[raqyee]

Using 2x Divine Bond on a Bloodtear gives you 4 damage and kills the Bloodtear.

Using Ironcliffe Heart -> Divine Bond on a Bloodtear gives you 13 damage and a 13/8 Provoke.

Good job on using what is probably the worst possible example, something which you would never do in practice as a counter argument.

The difference is that the current iteration of Divine Bond is not abuseable on all cards. You need, generally speaking, either a Celerity minion or a high-HP minion

And those are so hard to come by in Lyonar

[Smash_the_Hamster]

Yeah, that was my though as well.

And yes, I also think people are overstating the power. Holy Imo + Roar is 6 dmg. or 10 dmg on a 4 atk dude.

In short, with just one dude on board Lyonar is capable of lots of burst already. Overal, this combo is probably been well tested and thought to be fine. Without playing with the card myself I will simply have to trust that the devs did thier job well.

[ferenzy]

You forgot the:

Turn1: Minion
Turn2: Ironcliffe Heart
Turn3: (if it dies) Keeper of the Vale and start getting Ironcliffes and Silverguard Knights non stop for the rest of the game.

[Smash_the_Hamster]

oh one more thing.

• Lion --> transform + Bond = 7 mana, 13 dmg
• Lion --> Holy Imo + Roar = 5 mana, 12 dmg
• Lion —> Roar + Bond = 4 mana, 14 dmg

The moral of the story here is that we cannot forget context; Lyonar doesn’t have cards like Gloomchaser. If its going to be transform 2-drops then you have to consider what those 2-drops are able to do. In the case of Lion, Lyonar is already threatening high dmg without tranform.

The real combo to be scared of is Tiger + Transform + Bond. But this is 10 mana so…

[thorrk]

Regardless on how good or bad this combo is, I strongly dislike the direction CP is taking , earlier we talked about the frustration of out of hand damage in Duelyst and how rush minion/direct damage are currently polluting the game right now.

Instead of removing/reducing the possibilities of "kills out of nowhere ", CP is actually doing the exact opposite. What worries me about this combo is not its pure power but more the fact that you cannot interact with it.

Needless to say that this combo is also super boring and dumb… Once again it is not a matter of balance but more a matter of play-style, do you really think that it will be interesting and fun to play this kind of deck/combo?

[humancalc]

Abjudicator to solve the mana problem
Then next turn follow with Tiger + Transform + Bond.

Inefficient hard to do combo but would cause a lot of rage

[Smash_the_Hamster]

I can sympathise with this viewpoint.

however, its very possible that this card does not ful-fill the role people think it does.

the above comment about lion points out this this card doesn’t actually add much damage. Perhaps the purpose of this card is more tempo / value orientated.

e.g:

Turn 1: We play Lion (classic opener), they double 2-drop.
Turn 2: We grab a spring and then (using celerity) smack a 2-drop and then Transform it.

In short, maybe this card isn’t quite the damage dealer some thing it is. Perhaps its just a nice value card that can allow you to tempo out a cheap ironcliff.

[thorrk]

I think this card will make bloodtear very good in Lyonar, I personally found bloodtear+holy immolation super good already

Will see how the card works in practice but still don’t like those unnecessary risk.

[eldynamite]

aka 7 mana - 2 cards and a minion - three cards. 3 cards for 13 damage. Bounded Lifeforce can do that and better for one card.

Bounded Lifeforce deals 8 damage, puts your general within immediate lethal range, and doesn’t leave behind a 13/8 Provoke (worth about 7 mana itself). And even if you insist on calling it a 3-card combo, 13 damage and a 13/8 Provoke for 7 mana is still broken.

Sure - I too like to make my lethal combos based on playing an 8 mana card before playing a 2 card 7 mana combo.

You don’t have to use Phalanx. I’m just pointing out that it’d be unwise to assume Lyonar will continue playing with a one-card-on-curve strategy that makes it simple for the opponent to prevent a minion sticking.

Rush - I like the use of Rush in that statement. This is the same limiter as you’ve always had for Bond - remove minions, and Lyonar has no comeback - Holy Immo needs minions, Bond needs minions. Nothing has changed. Well, bond got costlier, so I guess something did change. Rush is what Revenants, Makantors and Tigers have. I imagine you call Aspect of the Fox broken too, since it can deal 3 dmg out of a BLoodtear body - the same, incidentally, as this card in terms of damage without buffs.

Yes, Aspect is a 1 mana 3/3 Rush, but it doesn’t leave behind an Ironcliffe like Heart does. The difference between a 2/1 and a 3/3 is small; the difference between a 2/1 and a 3/10 Provoke is massive. Please don’t forget about the body left behind.

One of the biggest problems with Heart is that enables Divine Bond without minion discrimination. Divine Bond requires certain minions to work-- celerity or high-HP minions, generally. Heart + Bond works on any minion.

The reason I call it rush is because you’re creating a new minion while bypassing the “summoning” exhaustion.

How about hmmm reaching 7 mana. Aggro Vaath, Mid range Kara, most versions of Songhai, and even current Lyonar builds finish at or before 7 mana regularly.

Reaching 7 mana is difficult, but Cassyva is the second-strongest general in the game right now, and Kara likes to finish the game on the second BBS BrokeBack . Let’s not forget that Lyonar’s early game is one of the strongest, and that aggro has undergone continuous nerfs since Facemonkey Zirix, so it’s not particularly difficult for a Lyonar to make it to 7 mana.

Yea, I also want to play this mythical game in which you draw 2 cards as a buy-1-get-1-free package, draw Ironcliffe Heart get Divine Bond free, and meanwhile hold on to a 4 mana spell and a 3 mana spell both of which require targets in hand waiting for the enemy to gift you a minion to play it on.

You don’t need to hold onto them. They’re not weak spells individually. You can use DB on the Ironcliffe that didn’t die or you can use Heart on some half-dead 2 drop you have lying around. Given that Divine Bond-based decks have been viable for some decent amount of time, and given that Ironcliffe is one of the best 5-drops in the game, it’s inaccurate to act as if this is some combo Aequitor deck.

I feel like you used the words ‘absolutely ridiculous’ to describe the average combo you presented, and then use Dragonlark as the breaking factor.

Dragonlark isn’t a breaking factor. It’s just one of the things you can use. I could have named almost any other card, realistically, but I wanted to point out the range of this spell as well. Does your Lyo list run Primus Fist? Use it on that. Repulsor Beast? Another target. Did your Dioltas get Chrom’d? Now it’s an Ironcliffe.

I feel like there’s some misunderstanding-- perhaps I wasn’t clear enough-- but it’s not just about the 13 damage off any minion, it’s also about the 13/8 Provoke that gets left behind. With the exception of SotW-- which is another problem entirely-- there’s nothing remotely like this in the game currently.

[ZyX]

Bounded Lifeforce deals 8 damage, puts your general within immediate lethal range, and doesn’t leave behind a 13/8 Provoke (worth about 7 mana itself). And even if you insist on calling it a 3-card combo, 13 dam

Recount the number of times you are still alive after being hit by a Bounded vaath.

Yeah, that 13/8 Provoke matters zilch.

I put my own thoughts on the matter here -

Ironcliffe Heart - OPee or NOPee? • r/duelyst

[ramsaybolton]

I also think that this card is not as amazing and game breaking as you talk. I see at the card as buff and it just encourages to kill any minion on the board. Also roar and immolation ecourages so nothing changed. Lyonar just got new buff card. It’s 4 mana and you can summon 4/6 or 3/6 provoke for this, instead you buff your minion for 6 or 7 health + provoke. Yes you can buff 2/3 minion and give it DB but your opponent knows about it and can just get out frome this minions range. As we already get out from Magmar’s Bounded Lifeforce after 7 mana

[lordofpomegranates]

with this addition planar scout x2 might see play in some lists. It already has synergy with immolation for an out of hand aoe and on its own it gives other minions airdrop for 1 mana.
Now with the additional synergy of ironcliffe heart it gives players more reason to run it, as it is a minion you do not mind transforming and allows the spell ironcliffe to be dropped anywhere on the map.

[obsidianbottle]

For 2 cards you can get an Ironcliffe for the normal amount of mana!
What sick combo!