I guess so hehe 
Fanmade Vanar Patch (Expansion + Balance changes)
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At this point I’ll say I’m credible when I talk about wall decks or vanar in general. and I can assure you - this is not a walk in that park, even for an old wall dude like me.
The depth of knowledge you need for wall deck to wreck up wins is immense.
Some cards are good as aggressive some as defensive.
The way to prepare for ice age as the wall player is different then the way to embla.
Embla is more of a defensive card - used for more gradual kill (either by reflection or wake).
Ice age is all out war card and if you don’t play right before you drop it you will usually die the moment you do drop it.
Ramping without losing hand size and hand answer management is also hard since you got a limited deck.
The draw engine, position and approach against different decks is on the polar ends of the spectrum.
The reason being - you need to survive long or you need to kill fast and your machine is very well performing but usually heat slowly.
You usually got answer for everything but you’ll need to stretch your game plan.
I guess it looks like a block of ramp and boom from the outside but it is a hard hard deck to run with a good win rate.
This is what makes it so fun btw:)
On a different note - decks that run both (embla and ice age) will struggle more in the early and mid game then decks that build for only one since the approach as I understand it is different.
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Ok, I’m convinced. I guess I was a little too harsh on these late game win cons because I don’t personally like them.
I guess we can keep Seraphim, Ice Age, Winters Wake and Finality as they are. I guess we can also leave Crystal Wisp as it is now.
As someone who’s played walls (although never made it past diamond 3 with walls) I know what you’re talking about. I know how difficult it is to manage your handsize and think ahead for answers while ramping.
I just personaly don’t like playing them and don’t like how they overshadow most Vanar decks but you’re right. Ultimately I should try not to let personal bias affect my decisions.
I still like my idea for Crystal Wisp as a seperate card however perhaps not a 3:1 but a 2:1 instead that punishes the enemy player for playing board clears without clearing this minion first (with dispel as you mentioned)
I’ll add it in as a new card
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I guess we’ll leave it for the personal rest of style and gameplay. They overshadow most vanar decks because the other decks (vespyr, infiltrate) doesn’t seem as a limited case.
So players will usually lose their minds trying to figure out what goes where in a vespyr deck and what’s the different between card a and card b.
Wall deck seems on paper as the easier of the 3 for the exact limited space where things are a little brighter.
The funny thing is I use to see a few wall/vespyr players.
These days I usually see aggro faie, which I hate.
Personal bias are part of the game, I hate Magmar and if they make the faction into a bunch of battle pets I will be almost happy.
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I guess it’s because the former requires 100500 IQ to play while the latter is highrolly but inconsistent. Aggro trumps it all, and has pretty fast games suitable for hyperclimbing as a nice bonus.
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Seeing many wallnar players was mostly due to walls beeing completely broken.
Players were not realy playing wallnar-they were playing the deck that was most powerfull at the time.
Today these players are playing wanderer rag and fault vet
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Yep the case exactly and the main reason why I like it that way:)
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Back when wall was a thing people didn’t know how to play wall decks (excluding a few vanar mains and some veterans).
Just like the people who play fault does not know how to play vet (excluding…) , which I just got into and it is amazing and complex.
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Agreed, played fault, just felt dumb. I mean, it’s strong but it doesn’t feel right
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some of these changes are good.
some of these changes are awful.
lets go through the noteworthy ones
Im a sucker for new tiles, but dispel doesnt seem very in character for vanar due to walls vanishing upon being transported to the tile.
Unforgiving Wisp feels unnecessary due to the similarities to crystal wisp
Spirit Walker seems OP due to being a hearth sister that gained the powers of a cryptographer. a combo which was already strong in vanar now gives you double of both, which is nuts.
Frostborn ward is strong and might be what it takes to bring stun decks into the meta. especially with silver fang giving you a more reliable stun.
Shimmering Pixie… i imagine as quite similar to bloodbound mentor and is just as strong, if in slightly different circumstances. This is more like a mentor for kara instead of faie.
Frostfire Lynx reminds me of a mixture of dancing blades and an old version of sunsteel defender. While i like there being more positioning rules, this is quite strong and likely needs 1 more mana to remain balanced. personally i would like this minion to deal damage to a minion behind it as some vanar infiltrate flavor.
Ghostly striker is very strong and i dont think that the phantom needs rush. it could be without rush and still be quite playable and even strong in certain situations, especially with the rest of this expansion.
Cordial Colossus seems… bad… its so expensive and demands the opponent use a spell or opening gambit form of removal to play around. its a big “answer or do nothing” card and thats not fun.
Cryogenic Figure also seems useless. its a big minion yes, but by the time you play it whenever its effect procs, your opponent is also at 9 mana. or 8 mana, which isnt really that different. unless it also permanently reduces the mana cap permanently since mana is gained every turn. if thats the case then it needs a slight wording tweak and its worth its 9 mana price tag.
Cryogenic Wipe Out feels overtuned. It’s only purpose is to detonate all your luminous charges and nothing else. And for that, razorback is just better… unless youre trying to do that instantly out of hand for a quick 8 mana 10 damage aoe.
Frostburn needs a tiny buff, but transforming all enemy tiles is not the way to do it. That just ANNIHILATES Abyssian shadow creep decks. a 6 mana card that just deletes your enemies entire deck is bad. Perhaps it can spawn chromatic tiles under minions that it killed? that still feels a little strong. Something to think about.
Snowchasers do not need a buff. they are fine as they are.
Myriad doesnt really need the nerf, but i can see what youre doing trying to reduce the RNG.
wolfraven sleet dasher and voice should have been vespyrs all along.
I dont think embla needs to be changed but you still need to think of what the description means when the enemy general cannot be surrounded by 8 walls. either by being on the edge of the field or having minions nearby. it also gives no indication whether the location of each wall is static. will the bonechill barriers always be in the upper corners? will each one be opposite its pair? just think of the poor spaghetti code.
Khanuum-Ka needs rewording. that dying wish is wordy and longer than it needs to be.
Thank Aeperion that rae is getting nerfed. 0 cost minions are OP. this is why slo was nerfed.
I think Wanderer can stay at 6 mana with the nerf that only non-token minions from the action bar get the buff. nerfing it to 7 mana on top of that seems overkill.
flash reincarnation and darkfire sacrifice dont need that significant a nerf. choose one - decreasing the cost by 1 OR limiting it to the next card played. not both. doing both makes the cards cost outweigh their benefits 90% of the time. most other ‘decrease cost by 1’ cards are attached to minion bodies AND are re-usable AND otherwise have no cost
Abjudicator doesnt need this change. we already have this card. its called manaforger.
I’m realizing that you just nerfed all forms of ramp across the board, and that just makes vanars ramp, which you buffed, even more oppressive. you should really mention that in the “what im trying to do” section. “buff ramp for vanar and nerf ramp for everyone else”
The BBS updates seem nice, but Shidais seems overly complicated in its new iteration. especially since literally nothing else counts turn numbers besides buildings. and those are just a start of turn countdown.
Liking the change to wild inceptor. it makes eggs less bursty but easier to hatch, so you can get those eggs hatched ASAP without contributing to a one turn finisher
Your math on decispikes is a little off
spikes draws 3 cards. deals 3 damage. then they start their turn for 1 damage. that equals 7 damage. and only if they end their turn before dealing with it does that turn into 8 damage as they draw a card at end of turn.
The sarlac change seems a little strong. given that after its first death, every subsequent death on that turn will have it merely respawn on the same tile every time. effectively creating an impassable square.
Your “RNG” change token summon list seems… wrong…
1 - Sky Phalanx allows the player to place those things and what it summons are not tokens.
2 - you forgot to mention the original token summoner. Bloodmoon Priestess, who would be nigh unkillable with this change.
3 - You also forgot Nimbus
4 - this also massively changes the balance on these things and how they play. it makes the token generators much harder to kill (or more offensively powerful when talking about obelysks) as well as not protecting the summons in the case of juggernaut, locust, or kron.
5 - also gate of the undervaults summons are not tokens. neither are the majority of echo deliverant or deceptib0ts summons.
And that nerf makes blue conjurer completely useless outside of niche arcanyst decks but way too reliable in songhai decks that rely on such consistency.
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I disagree with you on dispel not fitting the theme of Vanar. Vanar is the go to faction for dispel decks thanks to Moose and Malicious Wisp. It’s only going to get stronger with the new Fridigon.
You’re right about Spirit Walker, Frostfire Lynx and Ghostly Striker.
I nerfed the stats on all of them. Spirit Walker is now a 1:3. Frostfire Lynx is a 3:1 so it dies to plasma storm despite the forcefield and I nerfed Ghostly striker’s stat like to 3:3.
Now it’s basically a 5 Mana investment for a 3:3 body + a chromatic cold on a nearby space which seems fair to me. Compare it to Sandswirl reader which is a 3:3 body + Hailstone Prison on a nearby tile + a token generator for 5 Mana.
Cordial Colossus and Cryogenic Figure are basically there to supplement the change to Aspect of Ego which transforms a minion to a Vespyr of the same cost. I think Cryogenic Figure could still be playable? Maybe if you ramp it super duper early and it sticks a few turns before it gets removed?
You’re right about Cryogenic Wipe Out as well. If you’re only using it for damage, Razerback is just a better card. But sometimes you really want to destroy your walls. For example when you’re playing against Shadow Creep or when they put a Thunderhorn down, those Gravity wells left behind from the first turn become your biggest enemy. So its nice to have a card that allows you to combo it with Luminous while dodging all those threats at the same time.
You’re right about Frostburn and I like you’re suggestion. I changed it.
I agree with you on Flash Reincarnation and Darkfire Sacrificed. I made it limited to the next card but I made a simple change. They cannot affect the cost of cards with Mythron Rarity. So no more turn two Flash Wanderer or DFS Xor. What do you think?
I disagree with you on Abjudicator. It’s the most highroll card in the game. Changing its stats to 3:2 make it so that it’s not a tempo loss like Mana Forger and still a very good turn one play. I don’t see why it couldn’t replace a card like Healing Mystic in certain spell heavy decks.
Also the change makes it so that it has great synergy with cards like Inner focus, Assassination Protocol or Cryonic Potential.
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huh, iirc 1st wish was a big deal(i’ll check old vet thread just to be sure). imo the only reason it isn’t as discussed as much is because there are,now 9-12 more cards in vet decks that are autoincluded(golem). i enjoy the consistency it brings, but tbh ive come to loathe how its in all of my decks. that, and topdecking 2-3 first wishes make me feel like im cheating tbh.
sry for replying so late in the convo.
final notes: not too big fan of faction identity. archetype identity is something i prefer. fuck makantor. and fuck how it’s autoinclude.
4 Likes
Well I had planned on avoiding this, but as my name is mentioned so I suppose I will leave some feedback.
Let me preface this with the fact that I am a Vanar main, so if anything I am biased in their favor rather then the other way around. I have recently taken walls and tempo vanar to S1, and it is my main role in Team Wars with which I sport an excellent winrate in top notch competition.
So to start I still do not understand why you are under the impression that Vanar is weak. They are very strong and balanced, just very difficult to play, at least their good/non highroll builds are this way. For ages they were THE number one faction, and now they still compete with the best but only in the hands of a good player, which is superb design. While buffing factions across the board to be on par with the big top four of the meta is one way to go about things, it wont solve the polarized meta we have right now. And certainly we should not be buffing AND nerfing. Not to mention if you are going to nerf something the smaller the better, a tiny adjustment can move something from overpowered to unplayed.
Onto specifics:
Xpac:
Summary
I am always down for reducing RNG.
Keywords are fine, but unnecessary as the effects are not common enough to warrant it.
Tile is neat and flavorful but it seems both a bit underwhelming as it is to easy to avoid, and counterproductive with walls.
Rush is a dangerous keyword outside of factions that are designed for it, and targeted tiles are also dangerous. And vanar is almost at the tipping point of to much ramp as is. I am not comfortable with these at all. We will see what they are attached to.
Bloodbound Disciple: Adding another crypto to the faction could be back breaking. It would move faie from burn as a secondary to a primary which is bad, and it could give kara some insane swings. AND this is one mana. Going to have to say no to this, way to strong.
Unforgiving Wisp: Mmmm this one is neat, both effects make me nervous, but it has hella counterplay so it is fine.
Spirit Walker: Crazy op, as it combines faies two bread and butter cards (sister/crypto) into one absolute monster. Going to have to shoot this one down hard.
Frostborn Ward is cool. Stun support is good. Probably could be stronger still, make it the same as Sunriser, do 2 damage.
Silver Fang is fine if Corona can not target a general, not fine if it can. And I am all for reverting the corona nerf as that is one of the few that were unwarranted, and in that case silver fang needs to be reworked.
Sublunar Sanctuary: Lunar is fine, but the token not so much, this is basically firestarter but it lets you play your whole hand. Firestarter is a bit underwhelming, but this is to much. The token needs to be adjusted if its going to be attached to this. Now unless I misunderstand and said token does not give you mana but just creates a weird empty tile? And in that case this is just weird.
Radiance: This really weak, would never see play.
Pixie is cool but a cheap rush unit in the hand could be a dissaster. Needs to be a generic illusion arcanyst token, or something similar vespyr.
Frigidon: This one is cool, it makes me a little nervous but I think that is ok. I love raw power with draw back units.
Frostfire Lynx: Neat, I am super down for more Slasher/Blades style units as they are super board based and have loads of counterplay. But high atk force field units have proven to be problematic in the past let us not repeat old mistakes. It needs lower atk, or no forcefield and a little more health.
Ghostly Striker: This seems like a slightly worse firestarter, and firestarter already sees no play.
Cordial Colossus: Cool, but wayyyy to weak. An 8 mana card with no immediate impact, that eats it to removal/dispel and does not even have polarity syergy. This one is just awful and needs to be way better.
Cryogenic Figure: This one is also a mess. a NINE mana card with no immediate impact better be on par with wordcore golem, way to weak. If this wasn’t nine mana than mana steal could be a real problem as it is really hated, I love M-Wisp but we can not add even more mana steal…yet at nine mana this effect is basically meaningless. This and Colossus need complete reworks.
Cryogenic Wipe out: Why? This is awful. Even if you could use it against opponents walls its strictly inferior to dispel, using it on something like luminous is pretty much strictly inferior to skorn or winters wake. This card serves no purpose at all.
Soul Essence: Neat. But I see no reason to not allow walls. It should either be a touch stronger or allow walls.
Vanar Adjustments:
Summary
Polarity: Hmm this is odd, it nerfs it for the place it is used for the most in arcanyst, but buffs it for all other archtypes. Can’t decide if I love this change or hate it.
Ego: I dislike this cards RNG factor period, and do not think it is very good in general, but having its high and low rolls are what makes it appeal to some. This change would make would make it more consistent but mostly pointles and it would likely never see play.
Mana Deathgrp: The card was a problem at 1 mana, and is a little undertuned at 2 mana. I am glad you already removed the healing part as that was really OP. The big problem with the card was that the effect stacked leading to absolutely insane opens back in its hay day. What should have happened/should happen to it is that it should be one mana but the effect should not stack.
Frigid Corona: Yup for sure, there was no reason it should have been nerfed.
Aspect of shimzar: Sure, I am all for no RNG. I don’t think this will really make much of a difference though.
Permafrost: Again no need to increase its mana, the strait buff is fine.
Endless Hunt: Tinkering with the mana cost is dangerous that is the most important stat on a card. Would be better to give them increased stats. The card is already decent, you do not want to over do it, I would start small with something like making it a 4/3 summon.
Boundless Courage: This card could just use the strait up buff, increasing its mana is not needed. 2 mana and dmg immunity till your next turn would be fine.
Cryogensis: A seriously underated card as it is, but sure adding the tile effect would be just fine, there is no other way to buff the card with out making it crazy op.
Frostburn is already solid. Overwriting tiles is to much. But Maybe having it create tiles on units it kills. Oh you already made this change. Perfect.
OK HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST A NERF TO WAKE! The only problem card in Vanar is Luminous its self, but with the other nerfs to the faction its fine having Luminous and M-Wisp be strong staples.
Iceage is already a pretty terrible card, idk why you would nerf it. Most good wall decks do not even bother with it as is, only the all in high roll ones. Oh good, you already saw the light on this one.
I am all for more vespyr tags. With one exception: Voice of the Wind: 4/5 is a notoriously strong statline giving it this AND making it a vespyr is to much. One or the other.
Cryoblade still seems underwhelming. Like I suggest in my thread, lets just make it beefy.
I think Elemental is a very inoffensive form of RNG, but I am also all for this.
Myriad: You somehow made an already terrible card even weaker?
Snow Rippler: Meh sure. I like zero rng, but I think the card could also use a bit of a buff of some sort.
Ghost Seraphim: (I guess you removed this?) I do not like this. You are nerfing its awesome and balanced Spirit combo, but returning some of the older toxic options. It could use a small bump though from 5 mana reduction to 6 mana reduction. Which keeps the flawless nightmare from coming back to soon, but gives mountain/frostburn a buff.
Grandmaster Embla: Glad you already adjusted it. I like this very much.
Matron: Also great.
Other Changes:
Summary
You must address Ziran as well if you are going to change anything else. Or we are left with a pretty gross tier 0 meta. All four of the top four need to be hit at the same time, doing less will lead to an even worse meta.
All for RNG cleanup, not sure if I like all your suggestions, but more or less on board, so not going into more details.
Ephemeral on Kha is good. 1 health on it is a huge problem. Really this card just needs to loose flying and then it would be fine.
Rae: I never had a problem with it, but folks are on board for this, but at 1 mana its useless, needs better stats like 3/1.
Wanderer: That is fair…I hate it so much though I want it either completely dead or reworked.
Rippers/Eggs: For sure this needs to be addressed but you are going WAYYYY over board my man. The smaller the nerf the better. Any one of the changes you suggest would be enough. 2/1 fine. Movement instead of celerity, fine. Summoned as a minion not an egg fine. Having hatches exhaust great. No rebirth fine. BUT ONLY ONE OF THESE THINGS NOT ALL!
Zoetic Charm: Yea that seems fair.
Abjudcator: This definitely needs to get hit hard, and this might do the trick.
Golem Metallurgist: Hum, interesting. Ironically this might be a buff? Not having to stick is a big deal. I have no problem with the card as is, but I think this would make it to good.
Wind Slicer: Wat? This card was already trash.
Kujata: Leave it alone, this card is barely played as is.
Timekeeper: Buildmar is certainly a polarizing deck, I like where this is going, but I think its to weak. I think just flat cost reduction on build units summoned while its out would be fair.
Prog: This card is already a win more card. This is wayyyy overkill. Its really only ever an issue when it is combined with Charm/Build and you are already hitting both of these so at most hitting its stats would be ok.
Shidai: You buffed her…why would you do that, she is already the most toxic general in the game.
Decimus: Unless we are also addressing Songhai and Lyonar burn leave it alone as it is the least offensive of the bunch. But yea for sure change it if those also get addressed. I do not quite like the route you are taking though, my suggestion is to make it do like 4-5 damage when your opponent draws a card but only once per turn. That makes it good elsewhere, but not broken with spikes.
Lava Lance: If you are making rag not summon an egg its probably already to weak at 1 mana. If not then yea I guess 2 mana is fair but not in addition to hitting other cards. Frankly it is the least offensive of the Rag problems.
Flash: Pain synergy is an awesome sub theme why kill it?
Darkfire: Why would you nerf poor abyss, they are in need of buffs more than anything else.
On ramp in general: If their targets are balanced they are not a problem. If what they are bringing out is so problematic that its game breaking if it comes out early, that is a problem with the card not the ramp.
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I agree with you on a lot of principles but the conclusions you draw from those principles really don’t make much sense to me at all. Most often than not I find them in direct contradiction with those principles.
I’d love to argue with some of the points you mentioned however considering the fact that you’ve been wanting to avoid this I can only conclude that you’re not interested in a discussion or you think that a discussion with me isn’t worth it.
Whatever the case I’ll avoid it as well but thank you for your input on the matter nonetheless.
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