Faction Strength / Weakness Guide (rough draft)

[kirabi]

I started to work on this little guide for myself so that i could build decks a little better and decided it would probably be made into decent new player guide if I put some effort into it.I thought some feedback would be good to make it into something useful.Any help,feedback, corrections or suggestions would be appreciated

Magmar

Strengths

• Beefy Large end game minions (ala Silthar Elder, Juggernaut, Grand Master Kraigon)
• Good Rush minions
• Great Selection of Aoe Spells
• Great Big ender combos (Decimus+ Spikes, Drogon+ Cryptographer, etc.)
• Good Ramp
• Good Healing

Weakness

• Lack of movement boosting abilities for minions and generals
• Lack of card draw (Vaath)
• Mostly a slow build up minions, most threats take a turn or two to get scary

Staple minions: Warbeast, Lavaslasher, Young Silthar, Decimus(Neutral, Starhorn)

Staple Spells: Flash Reincarnation Natural Selection, Earth sphere, Thumping Wave, Plasma Storm ,Tectonic Spikes(Starhorn)

Faction Key Rebirth, Grow, Primal Flourish
General Key Rush. Forcefield, Self-Damage, Golem

HS Comparison Druid(Ramp) mixed Warrior with small hint of Warlock
Magic Comparison Green

Vanar

Strengths

• Great Cheap Single Target Removal probably the best in the game
• Great Ramp
• Is suppose the be the positional board control faction with Avalanche, Glacial Fissure, Infiltrate minions
• Use to have bad Aoe Removal but know it has Frostburn, Enfeeble, Blinding Snowstorm
• Use to have card management issues but is now fairly good with Circlus and Blue Conjurer
• Solid Mobility Spells
• Consistent damage pressure via Faie bbs

Weakness

• Low burst(?)
• Poor Straight up card draw
• Lack of Healing
• Not very useful in faction minions

Staple minions: Circulus, Owl beast(neutral) Blue Conjurer (neutral) Trinity Wing( (Neutral)
Staple Spells: Chromatic Cold, Mana death grip, Frostburn

Factions Keys Infiltrate, Vespyers, Stuns, Sentinels ,Walls
General Key Dying Wish, Arcanyst,Flying

HS comparison: Hybrid of Hunter and small hint of Freeze Mage(?)
Magic Comparison

Vetruvian

Strengths

• Board Presence via Oblelysk
• Great buffs and Support Spells
• Surprising Burst Damage
• Supposed to be “the Artifact Faction”

Weakness

• Poor Aoe
• Decent to Poor early game
• The board presence can be kind of fake via Obelysk
• Poor Range removal

Staple minions: Pax ,Falicus ,Dream shaper, Fireblaze Obelysk, Amara Healer, Sandswirl reader

Staple Spells: Blood of Air, Superior Mirage, Rasha Curse, First Wish

HS Comparisons Shaman (Totems) with Priest (Minion Control)
Faction Key Obelysk, Dervish, Blast
General Key Dying Wish, Flying, Golem

Songhai

Strengths

• Burst Damage
• Mobility (probably the best in the game)
• Good Single target removal
• Good Early game minions

Weakness-

• Poor Healing
• Decent Aoe Removal

Staple minions: Grandmaster Zendo, Eternity Painter, Flamewreath (Kaelos)

Staple Spells: Juxtaposition, Inner Focus, Phoenix Fire, Mist Dragon, Killing Edge, Onyx Bear Seal

Faction Key Backstab, Sentinel, Spell Boost
General Key Ranged, Arcanyst, Rush, Flying

HS Comparison Rogue(Miracle) Mage(Burn)
Magic Comparison

Abyssinian
Strengths-

• Queens of Late Games-Arguably the best late game win conditions
• Good Healing
• Decent Ramp

Weakness

• Poor Early Game minions with solid bodies
• Lack of in faction dispel
• Mostly inefficient cost removal

Staple minions: Spectral Revenant, Phantasm, Ooz, Desolator,

Staple Spells: Punish, Sphere of Darkness, Deathfire Cresendo, Grasp of Agony, Daemonic Lure,

Faction Key Creep, Wraithling, Deathwatch, Minion Sacrifice for bonuses, Sentinels
General Key Dying Wish, Arcanyst

HS Comparison: Warlock(Zoo) with a hint of Handlock
Magic Comparison

Lyonar

Strengths-

• Probably best early game minions in the game
• Good Healing
• Good Bulky Provokes and Sturdy minions
• Very Versatile faction can do a little of everything

Weakness-

• Poor Large Minion Removal
• Very dependent of minions on the board to be effective
• Decent out of hand damage

Staple minions: Azurite Lion, Windblade adept, Silver guard Knight, Iron Cliff Guardian, Scintilla Sunforge Lancer(Ziran), Sunriser(Ziran) Sunrise Cleric(Ziran)

Staple Spells: Holy Immolation, Trinity Oath, Sun bloom, Tempest ,Divine Bond

Faction Keys Zeal
General Key Forcefield, Celerity, Provoke, Golem

HS Comparison: Paladin with hint of Priest
Magic Comparison

[paralykeet]

This seems kind of pointless, as in you’re doing the Dev’s jobs for them. Duelyst factions are not well defined beyond “Vanar gets everything” and “Vetruvian is the weakest”, because the Devs don’t seem to be making a particular effort to do so (and if they did, there would likely be a sort of mass errata to reboot the game accordingly to some tangible structure.)

I don’t mean this to be harsh, but because it is unfortunately the reality of Duelyst as we know it. The Devs don’t give transparency, or accept feedback until players stop playing en masse; the designs are rather haphazard at best, and there don’t seem to be any hard and fast rules or logic to anything. The game lacks structure that it’s competitors do, and I can’t see that changing to be perfectly honest- because so far they’ve become comfortable with “Design by Hand Grenade”. The game is beautiful in it’s own way for that- but is largely dismissed past being a collectible curio for that very reason; and as such hasn’t garnered a particularly robust community for theorycraft, let alone insight into the design past “cool new things to see.”

[kirabi]

I don’t necessary disagree with you but i think the exercise has some merit especially for a new player if this guide is flesh out well.

[isgopet]

Lack of card draw (Vaath)

No. Ever head of Spikes?

Mostly a slow build up minions, most threats take a turn or two to get scary

Elucidator, Makantor, Lavaslasher, and Decimus all have very strong IMMEDIATE value.

[thefirstgokun]

I feel Duelyst’s factions have too many separate archetypes and gameplans to possibly compile strict strengths and weaknesses. Heal Zi’Ran, for example, will have much more ranged removal than Titan Argeon, and Aggro Starhorn is the polar opposite of Grow Vaath. As such, many weaknesses are dependent on the archetype.

I will agree with you on some of these though. Magmar has literally zero movement tricks, while Abyssian had none until Unearthed Prophecy. Lyonar’s out of hand damage is dependent on minions, whether they are Roaring a Saberspine Tiger, Immolating a Slo or Bonding an Ironcliffe. Abyssian has no dispels/transforms and most of their removal is pretty janky. Songhai’s healing and aoe are dependent on spell cast/spell damage combos. Vetruvian suffers most from poor matchups.

I went on a bit of a typing tangent there, sorry. Factions do have weaknesses, but they’re so easy to mitigate and so dependent on individual decks that this sort of exercise should be taken with a grain of salt.

[mrmana3]

It’s great to be trying to reach out to new players in search of guidance. As things stand though, there are so many different archetypes for each faction that you might want to try identifying the strengths and weaknesses of certain meta decks instead.

The neutral cards we have now can patch up nearly any weakness a faction has (Azure Herald in Vanar for healing, Repulsor Beast in Lyonar for big minion removal etc). Focusing on particular decks will make it easier to label different strengths and weaknesses because the cards in those decks don’t change.

Hopefully people will be able to put this guide to good use. I know I just said to reinvent your idea after all the work you put into it. I just think it will make things easier for you, as well as anyone trying to climb up the upper ladder (lower ladder is too unpredictable).

[longshot405]

I like what you’ve done here, but allow me to add my two cents if you will.

I disagree that Magmar has a lack of card draw. Most Magmar decks either don’t need it (since they’re riding the curve to victory) or are running multiple copies of tectonic spikes (arguably one of the better draw cards in the game).

I would say Magmar has a weakness in removing large threats. Most of their removal hinges on your minion’s attack power. Otherwise, they typically rely on their own minions for removal (makantor and lavalasher are most common).

Vanar, at least in lower levels of play, does not have exceptional burst, but at higher levels this is not true. Ghost Seraphim combined with some spells can create massive face damage. Additionally, Vanar has enough tools to provide large buffs to their minions for unexpected swings.

Vetruvian has strength in their swarm potential. While it may take a bit more investment, Vetruvian’s swarm is typically beefier than your archetypical Abyssian swarm.

Songhai has strength in their ability to play chains of cards. For this reason, it is extremely common to see them running tools to replenish their hand (spelljammer). Their removal tools have a weakness though, most of it is damage based (burn or backstab). OBS and the newer Painter are their only other efficient, unconditional removal tools.

Abyssian has very large, but board dependent burst potential (although some have fallen out of favor: Obliterate, Deathfire crescendo, Phantasm Revenants).

I would also argue that their removal is cost efficient, but dependent on board state manipulation (punish is extremely efficient but occasionally damaging a minion first can be easier said than done).

[shatteredskys]

I agree with the firstgokun, factions are far too vast to have a specific Weaknesses and Strength across all of them. Mech Vanar has a very different set of weaknesses and strength over Control Vanar. A faction may have almost everything but there are only 40 deck slots and how those deckslots are used is what makes a deck.

[longshot405]

Although I can absolutely understand where everyone is coming from with this, I personally believe the factions still have visible archetypes and expectations that can be drawn from them.

For example, think of Magic the Gathering. Each color has their own flavor and expected abilities. When a blue player sits across the table from you, you’re not going to think to yourself “I need to be careful about big creatures hitting the board and frequent creature buffs.” Sure, these cards do exist in all colors in some way shape or form, but what color they are playing gives you information about your opponent’s deck possibilities. This is exactly what we’re discussing, but rather how it pertains to duelyst instead.

[oranos]

There are a few bits i straight up disagree with. Vetruvian has some great early game with golems and dervishes. Pax is great early and they have an easy time chaining golems with dreamshaper and metalurgist.

Abyssian removal is efficient with mana, but is sometimes tricky to use since it relies heavily on board state.

Magmar doesnt have a great selection of aoe, but they do have the best aoe card in the game as a basic.

Control vanar lists (any late game or even ramp list) has decent burst like wailing overdrive or winters wake. Especially now with glacial fissure and flawless reflection

Dying wish really isnt a vanar thing. Sure there are decent minions that have it like luminous charge, but it doesnt define the faction the way it does in abyss and vet.

Blast isnt a songhai thing. And flying isnt really either. There is mizuchi and scarlet viper and thats really it. They have so many cheap mobility spells that the flying keyword is basically worthless. And there are way more staple minions than that. Katara, lantern fox, and now scroll bandit to name a few.

And if you are going to seperate out generals for half the factions, you may as well do it for the rest of them.

[isgopet]

Vetruvian has some great early game with golems and dervishes.

[kirabi]

So to be clear

Good Card Draw/Value generation cards

Vet- Azure summoning, Scion First Wish, Dream Shaper, Reassemble, Whisper of the sands,Divine Spark,Inner Oasis, Wind Strike,Astral flood

Songhai- Goatsu,Twin strikes,Killing Edge,Ancestral divination,Heavens Eclipse,Koan of Horns,Scroll Bandit,Xho,Lantern Fox,Mind Cage Oni,Sparrow Hawk,Twigilight Reiki

Decent card draw/value Generation cards

Magmar-Tectonic Spikes,Dance of Dreams,Entropic gaze,Razor Skin

Vanar-Frigid Corona,Cryogenesis,Vesperic Call ,Snow Rippler,Circlus

When I say Magmar has a lack of card draw it is under that context of course there is exception to rule,It is aggro Vaath decks and Starhorn list. Aggro doesn’t care about giving up Card advantage and damage on spikes helps with aggro strategy. But in general spikes is situational and just one card even with it Magmar still has weakness.One card could raise faction to have good draw but it would have be trinity oath or Rite of undervault style card that gives actually card advantage . Appreciate the feedback I will change the guide to mention Starhorn and aggo decks.

Abyssian removal is efficient with mana, but is sometimes tricky to use since it relies heavily on board state.

Magmar doesnt have a great selection of aoe, but they do have the best aoe card in the game as a basic.

Control vanar lists (any late game or even ramp list) has decent burst like wailing overdrive or winters wake. Especially now with glacial fissure and flawless reflection

Dying wish really isnt a vanar thing. Sure there are decent minions that have it like luminous charge, but it doesnt define the faction the way it does in abyss and vet.

1. Other than Punish what removal efficient, Abyssian Removal is general over costed or has downside

2. Diretide frenzy, Iridium Scale, Kinetic equilibrium , Catalyst Quilbeast, Taygete, Spirit Harvester ,Plasma Storm, Metamorphosis ,Mankantor Warbeast,Flaming Stampede, GM Kragion. Magmar has a great selection of Aoe

3. When talking about burst what is the scale? There is Songhai and Magmar burst that hits you for like 20 something easy with little set up .

4. Vet (and abyss) i need to use better wording.Vet has good early game with Obelysk but Obelysk are negated kinda easy so it is kinda fake good early game.The issue that Vet(non Obelysk) and Abyss minions have is frailty of early minions which keeps them from having stable boards.

Thank you for the feedback

The most import thing you brought up was the dying wish thing and flying thing. Vet have 7 dying wish minions, Abyss has 7 dying wish minions,Vanar has 4 dying wish minions, one wall with dying wish and minion that gives dying wish. The point wasn’t if they are faction defining,The point is that keyword exists in that faction and it is not anomaly.You won’t see Dying wish or Range in Magmar,You won’t see Rush or Flying in Lyonar. If faction has more than minion with the ability i put it on because then it is not anomaly like say Provoke in Abyss. One of points of this guide is to figure out what the faction identify/goals CPG has for the factions.

[kirabi]

I feel Duelyst’s factions have too many separate archetypes and gameplans to possibly compile strict strengths and weaknesses

It’s great to be trying to reach out to new players in search of guidance. As things stand though, there are so many different archetypes for each faction that you might want to try identifying the strengths and weaknesses of certain meta decks instead

I agree with the firstgokun, factions are far too vast to have a specific Weaknesses and Strength across all of them. Mech Vanar has a very different set of weaknesses and strength over Control Vanar. A faction may have almost everything but there are only 40 deck slots and how those deckslots are used is what makes a deck.

I am trying to give a general overview not be the end all definitive guide.The factions have enough versatility to cover weakness in some builds but there is overall intent for the direction of the faction. Magmar has 6 rebirth and 2 egg related minions and 7 normal grow minions,Yes Magmar can be this aggressive fast faction but intent is clear to be more slow controlish faction.

If this guide does the job i want it to do a new player will use to pick out faction that best fits them and an older player might use it help them think about build decks differently maybe you try to construct deck more based around cover up weakness where in the past they might have been building around strengths.

But maybe section on common builds or Archetypes or whole other guide would be helpful as well

For example, think of Magic the Gathering. Each color has their own flavor and expected abilities. When a blue player sits across the table from you, you’re not going to think to yourself “I need to be careful about big creatures hitting the board and frequent creature buffs.” Sure, these cards do exist in all colors in some way shape or form, but what color they are playing gives you information about your opponent’s deck possibilities. This is exactly what we’re discussing, but rather how it pertains to duelyst instead.

Thank you have summed what I am trying to do. If you came from Magic and you played Red,If you come from Hearthstone and you liked Miracle Rogue,You came from Shadowverse and you played Bloodcraft.I want you get quick understanding that Songhai is the faction you might want to play and what couple minions and spells you should focus in on. If you haven’t play these games i want you to get a quick understanding of what factions are good at.

[locoblutaxt]

I think Ragebinder should be on the “Staple Minion”-list for not only being useful in Golem decks but being sticky like Young Silithar plus having the heal-effect as a bonus.
Terradon might be too young for the list but having good chances being included to this hall of fame, too.