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DeathsAdvocate’s Master Thread: Unearthed Prophecy

#14

Afterblaze isn’t good to just toss in, but if you include it alongside a couple zeal minions it provides card advantage which is always important. I basicly never expect lion to survive and prefer casting it on a zeal minion, or in clutch moments.

I feel tempest is a must because of how prevalent walls and the azure flying combo decks are, plus it’s always good vs swarm.

I really am firmly against including Jammer in non aggro lists, and I prefer to get utility out of my two drops so that they remain relevant even in the late game, and I force extra draw out of afterblaze as well.

There isn’t a good reason for not including EMP, I just did not think about it, not sure what I would want to take out though.

Yea tear is there for Holy, but it’s is just fine for a turn 1 play, and I think having ping is really important.

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#15

The Afterblaze reasoning makes sense. It’s been a very long time since I played with it and all I remember is it being countered by cheap dispels everywhere, but nobody is really running Shroud anymore (for no good reason I can find, considering bender is so slow and most decks don’t need a triple/quadruple dispel simultaneously and it doesn’t wipe out Wall Vanar’s nonsense due to positioning shenanigans) so it’s probably much less risky to try it. If it baits a 3+ removal or a Punish out it did its purpose. I’ll have to experiment a bit with it and see if it adds anything.

Tempest makes a lot of sense too, it’s just one of those things that make me go ‘this would be so nice to have but I can’t spare the space for it’ and the value of Lasting Judgement (any turn 1 play except highly defensive 1/4s goes boom without impacting your own units, Lavaslasher can be killed by most of the lyonar minion roster in tandem with it, etc. etc. etc.) is super high. What about Blaze Hound in place of Sun Wisps + reducing Tempest and Afterblaze to 2-ofs to slot in Lasting Judgement? Too slow/inconsistent or does it make sense as a swap for tempo argeon?

(For Bond I think I’d take out one aegis and one bond or blaze and slot in 2 EMPs - Afterblaze has OK draw, and EMP reduces the need to have bonds and aegises around by providing enough big minions that even if every removal was spent countering what you put down the opponent would probably run out first - and since EMP is a natural 9/9 you don’t NEED to draw a bond to have a lategame finisher, meaning less chance of gassing out)

Curious about the Spelljammer reasoning. Why not keep it around? It has a big enough body that trading against it is something opponents don’t want to do, and while giving cards to your opponent is never a great deal, it projects enough threat that most players will choose to answer it instead of eating 5+ power hits to the face that is too sticky to remove without trading multiple minions or removal away.

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#16

I like my wisps, and all the decks have superb draw power that doesent feed your opponents cards. Why would you do that if you don’t have to? And the way I built these they certainly don’t need to.

Lasting judgement is good, but I am just not a fan. Perhaps back in a meta when tempest felt less absolutely mandatory it could fit, but I don’t think I plan on trying to slot it, and would sooner slot arclyte sentienel. I sort of have the same feeling toward it that you do towards tempest.

Hound/Jammer are great for aggro Argeon, but I am just not a fan of aggro in general because it’s only good if a meta has not adapted for it.

As for making room for emp, I will look into it in a bit. Perhaps a bond and a grandmaster can go, but I am keeping aegis for the cycle alone, even thrown on a crap two drop for a clutch draw can be good, plus it’s super important for the vanar/cass match up.

Cycles in general are amazing, pretty much always better to keep cards that cycle at 3x rather then 3x late game or hard draw. Normally I am a 3x purist, but if you have good cycle going to 2x on more situational/late game stuff is viable.

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#17

Side note, should probably remove links to my older threads since I will no longer continue to update them and keep my focus on this one.

Thanks for constantly representing me on the wiki.

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#18

:smiley: Thx bro for the deck list, i really love it :3

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#19

@boronian


While the deck has certainly proven to be effective, I just couldn’t stop thinking about your comment. They really are a bit counter productive. With the latest change opting to go back to thump/rush over natural selection and golems, its got me wondering if perhaps I am trying to hard to cram two different decks together.

Currently testing out some Variations:

Summary

Evolution:

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http://www.bagoum.com/deckbuilder#MTo0MDEsMzoyMDExMiwzOjE5MDM4LDM6NDA5LDM6NDMyLDM6MTAwMTIsMzoyMDExNywzOjIwMjE4LDM6NDMzLDM6MjAxMjIsMjoxMTAzMCwzOjExMDc3LDM6MTExMDcsMzo0MDUsMTo0MzY=

And Splice 2:

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http://www.bagoum.com/deckbuilder#MTo0MDEsMzoyMDExMiwzOjExMDg4LDM6NDA5LDM6MjAxMjUsMzoxMDAxMiwzOjQyOCwzOjIwMTE3LDM6MjAyMTgsMzo0MzMsMzoyMDEyMiwyOjExMDMwLDM6MTEwNzcsMzo0MDUsMTo0MzY=

Maybe its perfect as it is, maybe I will replace it with “evolution”, or perhaps these are just two new independent decks. Currently in testing phase.

As painful as it is not running natural selection I think the original version is still the way to go. Simply having the choice to either win with drogon or shut your opponent down with magesworn and replace the other is quite strong, at least until when/if the meta adjust for magesworns presence.

Perhaps your onto something running less 3x of things, but I am concerned with the lower curve and the reduced consistency of this potential list.

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Edits:
@boronian

Tested it out, really like that last one. Thanks for the feedback man. Just have to be a bit more stingy with drogon and save it for combo rather then removal, which is probably the better plan anyways.

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#20

With your love for Abyssian swarm and proficiency with Lyonar I’m surprised to see no Argeon AggroSwarm deck, variations of which I believe to be quite effective. Why so?

By AggroSwarm I mean smth like this

deckLandscapeLyonar (2)

I do not usually play aggro, but this deck is surprisingly fun for me. The idea is to summon lots of minions and buff them to infinity and beyond. IronHeart is for sudden early ironcliffe. 4/5 ephemeral shrouds are fun.

Also…Songhai deck in your master thread, finally :wink: Only one deck, but that’s just a first step, I believe)

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#21

Well, aside from my primary explanation for their lack of representation, I just don’t own a lot of their cards, and don’t like/play them enough to invest or test.

I just like abyssian, it’s not actually about swarm :P.

I certainly hope I don’t catch Songhai…and I just loath aggro in general so I very rarely make such a deck for any faction.

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#22

Not every songhai deck is bad, and you know it. Hope you catch a mild form of it someday :smiley:

Anyways, I share your displeasure with aggro, so your answer is perfectly understandable.

Cheers.

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#23

OK, so after testing the tempo deck out a bit…yeah, Afterblaze doesn’t work. Not with these minions. Let’s go over why.

A) It’s a dead card unless you get draw out of it. This means you can only play it with Windblade and Silverguard Knight. This means only 15% of your deck can turn Afterblaze into something valuable. Contrast this with Bond as an example of how bad this is - Bond works on 14 targets in the Bond deck (17 if you wanna stretch and say Windblade is good for it, I won’t make that argument) and yet it’s enough of a dead draw a lot of the time that two bonds tends to be plenty.

B) It requires a minion to stick until it can attack to be worthwhile (due to how costly and inefficient it is to play it in tandem with a Zealable minion). Because of how ridiculously accelerated this meta is and how common Dispels are, this is a dicey proposition. The meta right now says ‘pack enough T1 removals to deal with Cassyva’s Phantasms’, which means even the ‘safest’ turn available to set up an Afterblaze is T1P1, and even that one isn’t a very safe one still. With how much board churn there is right now it’s not worth betting on being able to keep a Zealed minion out until they’re in a position to be Blazed. The example above is probably the single best situation to afterblaze and it’s all downhill from there. The card is just too conditional for its cost.

C) Not enough draw to justify stalling your board presence like it does. A tempo list needs to have minions on board to do anything, so having to burn most of a turn playing Afterblaze tends to hinder your ability to dominate the board more than it helps. In terms of offensive presence, Afterblaze is very suboptimal, since it’s positioning-limited 2 damage (which may or may not repeat depending on what the opponent does), contrasted with the gold standard of Phoenix Fire doing 3 damage for mana with no muss and no fuss.

I feel like the afterblazes should either be replaced with something else, or the decks retooled to be actually capable of making good use of them. It kinda sorta works with Bond because you have Aegis Barrier as backup draw that has an extremely powerful effect attached to it, so you don’t mind losing the consistent draw of something like Spelljammer because you’re compensated for it (and Afterblaze helps make pretty much any card into a solid Bond target, giving it extra value and better use cases). With the Tempo list, not so much. It’d probably be stronger if attached to a Golems shell, since then you could also use Sol Pontiff as an Afterblaze carrier (giving you 9 ideal targets for it, a more acceptable 22% combination ratio, and most of all, better usability due to being able to discount Pontiff with Metallurgist/ramp with Celebrant). Purely spitballing here, but it almost feels like a tempo heavy list might want some other cycling spell to get its draws from. What that might be I don’t know, because the only thing that comes to mind as being even kinda valuable to tempo is Aerial Rift, but I think it’s a good discussion to have. Am I missing something about its uses here? It really does feel like it’s way too slow for the meta.

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#24

I am pretty adamant about Afterblaze for the tempo variant, although it may not belong in the bond version.

Considering it has two zeal minions and Lion its actually pretty unlikely you wont have one of the cards you want to pair it with, especially considering the decks other sources of draw power. And if none of them stick its easy enough to replace until late game were its mana cost is irrelevant.

Its such a powerful buff that can turn anything into a threat and even sometimes provide draw power to. Its buff is non conditional unlike bond. Bond is more situational and situational cards are often run at 2x so that makes sense. Where as afterblaze is always good but situationally truly exceptional. I think you are really undervaluing the health bonus in a deck that has fairly low health units. You get immediate value either by a draw or using it on a minion that can act this turn, you already got what you wanted out of it, and now its either going to give more value or force your opponent to waste time on it with either dispel or removal.

Between sunbloom, tiger, and tempest tempo argeon is already very well stacked to deal with early threats. Aerial Rift is just not very good, afterblaze adds an important threat generating tool, that also often can be used to remove threats, helps make your field actually sticky, and adds even more cycle to a deck that is already good at it.

The whole key with tempo decks is to maintain tempo, spending time drawing cards or giving your opponents cards is a loss of tempo. Yea I know trinity oath seems like it contradicts that statement, but its just so bloody good and the healing is sometimes needed for certain matchups, and thanks to the decks curve once your at the 6+mana point trinity oath almost ensures you can draw into a unit you can play.

Now ironically you seem ok with it in Bond argeon, and this is the place I am way more skeptical of it. While sure the combo with bond is cute this deck already has so many great stat sticks that demand removal that the health from afterblaze is just not nearly as important.

Bond argeon also just really doesn’t need draw power and it is much happier just usually playing on curve, the cycle from Aegis, and the lategame trinity is really all it needs and afterblaze was just a bonus. Both decks have enough drawpower, and are not aggro focused so including something that also feeds your opponents cards is really unwise, best to find your drawpower elsewhere if you can, and these really can.

However this deck does not have as many phantasm answers as I would like, normally this is where I would put in lasting judgement, but that was pre UP, now I think I am going to switch out afterblaze with tempest. I was reluctant to include tempest in a Bond list, but I think its just to important to have due to walls and Azure flying. This also means I can drop windblade for healing mystic to provide some much needed healing and a mini combo with bond.

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#25

I am glad I could help your deckbuilding process :slight_smile: I really like having 3 Natural Selections. 2 Drogons and 2 Thumping Waves are okay, TW being pretty expensive now and Drogon is always best reserved for surprise lethal or an important removal.

Drogon is a great card but I think 2 is great. Thumping Wave is a card I can see as a 3of because it transforms, something important but not that accessible to Magmar. Still I think 2 is good enough.

4 Likes
#26

I’ve got a question on deckbuilding. How do you build a good deck curve? Not for any deck type specifically, I mean more in the sense of what to look for when picking one card over another. Obviously you don’t want to just grab the costliest minions and spells you can find and call it good, and depending on the type of deck you’re playing you’ll place your curve higher or lower, but ensuring you always have something useful to play and leave as little mana on the table as possible is proving kind of tricky. How does card draw affect the curve? I’ve been looking for info on how to adjust the curve based on that (especially when a card offers draw as a bonus, like with Aegis for Lyonar), but kind of come up empty and it seems like a pretty big deal when making sure a deck is actually good instead of just looking good.

2 Likes
#27

There are a couple basic tricks, obviously deck type, card advantage, and gameplan change these but here are some of the rules:

Typically you want 9 player one turn one plays, and usualy ones that can contest globes. The exception to this is for slower decks that like to skip card advantage, but even those like at least 6 plus some subpar options that cant contest globes.

So you need to choose the weight of your curve either being low with a quick gameplan, ultra low with good card advantage, on curve so you can just play one or two things a turn and not need advantage, or a slower deck that has a little of both.

Next you need to have a general idea of how many turns it takes your deck to win under normal circumstances and you need to build with sort of the goal of having a couple cards in your hand on the turn you should be winning. This way you have a play and a replace. So you just sort of have to eyeball how many cards each turn your deck is going to play/generate.

Draw is never mandatory, there are other ways to generate card advantage, or make it irrelevant. Desolator is a perfect card advantage generator being the only thing you need in your hand, and stuff like fault/variax make card advantage unneeded since your hand barely matters once those hit.

An on curve deck looks something like 9 two drops, 3 three drops, 6 four drops, 6 five drops, 3 six drops, and a couple late game bombs. Then from there you have removal, tech, and usualy something to generate card advantage like some cycles, none of which really count towards the curve since their mana cost is sort of irrelevant just being cards you play at the opportune time and even if they are just a two cost card like punish they are just fine to be the only thing you play in a turn.

Another thing that takes a lot of practice is resource management, it is perfectly ok to not spend all your mana each turn, and even occasionally skip turns if your playing a deck with low card advantage. This is a tough skill to learn, but a valuable one because time spent drawing cards is lost tempo, and spending removal on a low priority threat that you could just trade with is a waste. This does of course depend on the deck your playing, many decks prefer to try and really use as much mana each turn.

I cant give you a lot of direct numbers because each deck is so different, its more of just something you sort of have to eyeball, test, and get a feel for. But if you look at my decks they should all give pretty good examples of the concepts I have been trying to convey.

5 Likes
#28

Hi, @deathsadvocate! I’m trying your creep city deck, and it’s really hard to get used to it! Hope you answer a couple of piloting questions.

Firstly, what is a best way to play nocturne? Should I only play it only when i have a huge combo in hand, or should I play it at the first opportunity?

I don’t usually play Grimwar, preferring different similar tools. Should I always place general agressively in order to use grimwar as soon as i have opportunity, or should i conserve health?

Also, it seems that I always lose the board. Is it intended or I miss smth?

1 Like
#29

I have not played that one very much, just enough to fine tune it since my buddy really wanted it be competitive.

I did touch on how to use nocturne a little, in my write up:

The deck used to run cresendo since I have allways disliked having to put the general in danger, but:

Generally you place Lili aggressively, but don’t go face with. Grimwar is as much a defensive card as it is one of your win cons.

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#30

Just some, or should I become greedy?)

Also, should I conserve wraithling producing to become creep producing or just get my swarm ready for the grimwar

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#31

@alplod Usually more then Bbs, but don’t be greedy.

If you have wraith stuff for turn two, play it on the back corner with your general blocking it from tiger. If you dont have wraith stuff use it to contest a globe if your player one, but in general try to keep it safe. Don’t think there is much more.

You cant count on finding noc, or it surviving, Go ahead and swarm as grim/furosa are really strong early on, creep is mostly late game. But do be careful and not to overextend around the 5 mana turn as thats when a lot of mass wipes start happening.

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#32

Naming decks is half the fun. Really enjoying what your lists go by!

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#33

Thanks :D, I put way more effort into naming the things then I really should.

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