Duelyst Forums

Are Strong Bodies Pointless?

#1

To me it seems like unless the game has devolved into a topdecking battle, playing any minion that doesn’t have an immediate on deploy effect is 100% pointless.

The only good 7+ cost minions in this game are all abilities (Embla, meltdown, Spectral Revenant being some but not all of the prime examples). With all the removal in this game, it feels like any card that is designed to be a strong body (Excelcious, Ironcliffe Golem, Peacemaker) really just ends up serving the purpose of drawing a removal card out - even once a topdeck battle has started. Same goes for any minion which requires you to build up ANY sort of board presence.

Despite the fact that a LOT of the more recently released removal cards are damage based (which I think is a 100% smarter way to handle removal in duelyst) there is still a lot of hard removal in the game that generates disincentive to anything that focuses on board building with strong body finishers which you can’t buff cheaply into.

TLDR: I feel this game punishes board building more than it punishes out of hand lethal and board removing control decks - something I feel is really sad since they board aspect of the game is so interesting. But I also might be jaded because of how ridonkulous Vanar control and Magmar out of hand is right now. The latter of which not necessarily being OP but making for a very solitaire-styled game.

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#2

I wouldn’t say pointless, but yeah, more or less. Anything over 5 mana without an immediate impact is unlikely to be worth it at any serious level of play.

#3

Yes, the game suffers of an excess of cheap removals and answer-or-die minions. It is a sort of chicken and egg problem, because it is unclear whether the former are due to the latter or viceversa.

My best advice to get some value out of big bodies is ensuring that your deck packs enough threats. Cards like Excelsious are bad if your opponent has a full hand and was not so worried in answering previous threats. However, they are game winning if left unchecked.

So, yes, a deck without early and mid game, but only big bodies is a joke. Big bodies can be useful if complemented by other threats. Against some factions high-cost minions can cost games, it is up to the player knowledge understanding when they should not be played.

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#4

I don’t know, maybe the developers thinks that enfeeble is fun?

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#5

Actually, I think that the only problem in enfeeble is being too cheap.

#6

I think the answer to that would be never though. Even if they have only one card in hand it STILL seems like there is at least a 50/50 chance that your big body is going to die to some 2-3 cost card.

#7

Actually, strong bodies are more prevalent in this meta than any other. Yes, immediate effect is required for an effect to be good, but that doesn’t mean that the body has no impact (Lavaslasher is one of the best cards in the game BECAUSE of its body)

1 Like
#8

Its also got a deploy for damage ability though - that is where I feel most of the value is. It feels like a cheaper, more durable mankantor imo

#9

Yet if it was a 4/5 it wouldn’t see much play

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#10

Try to play only small bodies against Magmar and get annihilated by Frenzy and Plasma Storm :slight_smile: seriously, in some matchups you need the big threats. Those lacking immediate effects are often bad, but they can be played with proper building.

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#11

but not against vanar

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#12

Just be patient, I’m betting that after next update and nerf bat, we will have plenty of Vanar player whining.

It’s just a cycle, meanwhile, you have to take the bullet, be patient … or play Vanar as most of people :wink:

2 Likes
#13

You must be new here~

Anyway, you’re pretty much right. You play the game by doing out of hand damage or out of hand abilities or by swarming the board with so many things that your opponent can’t remove them all. That last strat is dubious, though, due to AoE removal and the fact that those things won’t likely be all that threatening. It is never a good idea to focus your gameplan on 1 or 2 strong minions due to all of the unconditional removal running about.

Each expansion releases more unconditional removal too–generally that’s cheaper or just outright better than previous removal (see: Punish, Blood of Air, Enfeeble). They also tend to release cards that are super strong even if they are immediately removed (see: Variax, Noshrak, Embla). Thus, we continue into the abyss that is all of the strong-bodied minions of yesterday being rendered moot. This last expansion even sought to bring the staple bignions, Golems, into the realm of combos and out of hand damage.

#14

Not exactly. Playing something that doesn’t do something turn it’s played has always been a problem in these types of games. It’s just not a smart idea to invest your mana into something that relies on your opponent not being able to answer it, even more so if it’s very high cost. Even in other games cards like this aren’t a good idea. In Hearthestone cards like Rhonin(8 mana 7/7 that give you 3 1 mana spells that deal 3 damage randomly once it dies) and Cairne Bloodhoof(6 mana 4/5 that summons a 4/5 on death) don’t see play because how slow they are and how susceptible to getting removed via removal. The cards like this that do see play are so strong to that their effect cannot be ignored, ex; Sylvanas(6 mana 5/5 steal an enemy minion on death.)

However, Duelyst has much more viable removal than HS and this is being exacerbated by the current meta. Hard removal wasn’t all too popular a month ago when Lynor was the top dog but with Vanar and Magmar running around hard removal is plentiful these days. That being said I don’t see strong bodies being pointless. If you drop an Ironcliff and it eats a Enfeeble and a Deathgrip, that’s fine the card went two for one and generated value for you. The card wasn’t useless, you forced your opponent to use resources on it, two cards and most of their turn, to answer your threat leaving less removal for future threats and passing the turn to you to redevelop threats. This mostly works with 4-5 drops and anything over 6 is way too slow. As for minions that require you to develop board presence, well it really depends on the card. I’ve been playing a lot of Golem Vet recently and despite being a board focused deck it actually goes even with Vanar. The deck has so much draw and board refill potential that it can even overwelm Vanar when played correctly. In a deck like that cards that benefit from a board presence like Nosh- Rak, Feralu, and Inner Oasis are viable because of how easy it’s to create a board.

That being said I wouldn’t mind removal being toned down a bit but even with that cards like Excellsious and Peacekeeper probably wouldn’t see play. They’re just far too high risk and high reward to be commonly played and meta cards by their nature.

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#15

I do, mate, I do :disappointed_relieved:

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#16

I would not say so.
Only vanar have lots of hard removal. All other factions have what 3 removal spells? If you play 4 big minions the opponent will not be able to casually remove it for cheap.

Vanar will clear anything you play, you will not be able to stick a big minion but a little one would not stick for long either.
Other than that you can get something to stick if you try hard enough.

#17

You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the Vanar not join them!

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#18

No they are not. It’s just a numbers game really. The average deck has 3 hard removals, play more fatties than that and one will stick. Even Vanar has only 5-6 cards to deal with fat bodies and its unlikely they will get all of them. And if your fat minion has a dying wish the number of efficient answers they have is reduced to 3.

I have a bunch of decks with really high curves, Midrange Sajj, Midrange Magmar, Bond Lyonar, Creep Cass etc, all of them are filled with fat shit and they work just fine, there is just no way for any deck to answer them all. You’ve got to have a decent early and midgame though, if you have your back against the wall by the time your fatties arrive you will lose.

#19

Just to jump in, Magmar thrives off of hard removal as well. It’s one of the reasons they’re competing at the top of the ladder.

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#20

Plasma storm isn’t going to remove a 7/7. Natural selection is conditional and thumping wave is their win condition, you take it away and they won’t have as much out of hand potential.
Very few play egg morph, but that’s 4 mana + attack so quite expensive and a tempo loss.

Magmar aren’t really comparable to vanar in the removal depertament. It sure is good compared to other factions but not as much compared to vanar.